- Thread starter Lauren Summerhill
- Start date
zorro said:
I will reply that shadowsun's last post was right on the money for me. But to each her own. Lauren obviously has a different viewpoint, which may or may not be one that denigrates other SPs who consider the men they see as "clients".
Personally, I don't believe that it makes any of this business less sordid to call the "customer" whatever. I kind of like sordid, anyways. heh
Hmmm...I am going to start calling my clients my "bunnies". Or wait, my "suitors". No, wait...my "gifters". No, no...that's no good either...
No...my...Hmmm...
L
lagavulin
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shadowsun said:
Raiden
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Great just great. BT and Guido are now passed out on the couch in a spooning position with an empty box of pop-corn beside them.
Zorro finished off all the friggen Corona and has fallen asleep snoring his ass off, with his hand jammed down his pants ala Al Bundy.
Anyone left dammit? I am taking out Jack while we wait for Lauren to show up!!
Zorro finished off all the friggen Corona and has fallen asleep snoring his ass off, with his hand jammed down his pants ala Al Bundy.
Anyone left dammit? I am taking out Jack while we wait for Lauren to show up!!
shadowsun said:I agree with your sentiments here, but disagree with Lauren on a point of definition. I do not care how fancified you want to dress it up, each and every paid encounter means every one who comes by is a client. This term "lover" was used by a new arrogant sp in Winnipeg who read a book then decided she could do this work. She offended many, sps and clients alike, with this superior attitude.
I expect better from someone who has been in this industry as long as Lauren has, and find it disrespectful and condescending to both clients and sps. Use that fancy word all you like, it doesn't change anything. It implies that other sps do not have similar standards for picking and choosing who they want to spend time with, that their clients are somehow unworthy because they are called clients or don't undergo some elaborate selection process.
I never see anyone who does not connect with me with our initial contact; I do not see anyone twice who fails to fulfill that respect and mutual understanding. I would hope that each and every individual who chooses to see me and spends time with me will feel special, unique and cherished, because at the end of the day that is how I want anyone to feel when their time is over. I turn down many enquiries, many enquiries do not progress to appts, and many appts turn into repeat and regular clients.
And I am ok with that.
Why is it so important that everyone use you terminology, your frame of reference, and your view of this world?
If any community should be aware of and accept differences in relationships this should be it.
There is great variety in this community, and as long as those involved are happy with their choices, are not coerced into what they do, or how they do it why not just accept it?
There are people (men and women) here happy with everything from the 15 minute B&Gs to minimum overnights. People (men and women) who charge/pay $160 per hour to over $1,000 per hour. People (men and women) who are happy to be hookers and johns, escorts and clients, providers and customers, lovers and any combination therein.
If you choose to use client rather than john or lover because to you they mean something different to you; can’t you accept that others may do the same for terms they are comfortable with?
I
iceman_dci
Guest
What he (Ralp) said.
BTW...commented before about cancelling a potentially bad session for both parties is better than having a scheduled bad session. I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.
What I like about Lauren's attitude is that she is providing a "different' level of service; a service that most of hobbyers are not accustomed to but perhaps aspire to have at one point or another to fill this void and the reason why we hobby.
I love the intimacy of a repeat and the relationships that build. Lauren has a model that works for her and her Lovers and honestly, if I could afford the time and effort to do so, I would gladly sign up. A class act of cancellation Lauren.
And just for clarity above, I do agree with what RALP said but I also agree with (lightening don't strike me down for this) some of the things that SHADWOSUN has to say.
And dammit Rayden that Jack looks good...remind me to tell you a story about the LAST time Jack and I met ....you'll friggin' die.
BTW...commented before about cancelling a potentially bad session for both parties is better than having a scheduled bad session. I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.
What I like about Lauren's attitude is that she is providing a "different' level of service; a service that most of hobbyers are not accustomed to but perhaps aspire to have at one point or another to fill this void and the reason why we hobby.
I love the intimacy of a repeat and the relationships that build. Lauren has a model that works for her and her Lovers and honestly, if I could afford the time and effort to do so, I would gladly sign up. A class act of cancellation Lauren.
And just for clarity above, I do agree with what RALP said but I also agree with (lightening don't strike me down for this) some of the things that SHADWOSUN has to say.
And dammit Rayden that Jack looks good...remind me to tell you a story about the LAST time Jack and I met ....you'll friggin' die.
Lauren Summerhill
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Oh I do enjoy a good philisophical debate - and that's how I'm viewing this, please don't see this is an argument of force.
Then you need to get out more :mdr:
Many financially successful men spend a LOT of time away from their wives as their careers require them to, and in part they want to be away. They spend over 6 months of the year on the road. Some only see their wife and kids on weekends and holidays. There are also many wealthier marriages where they have 2-3 homes. They tell people they're "vacation" homes, or "that's the house in New York because we like to visit there often" but the truth is they lead two entirely separate lives and don't want to be the source of gossip. Don't think for a moment you know anything about the marriages of even your best friends - not even the children or parents of people know the inner workings of a marriage. If more people had the financial means to set up such a situation, I guarantee you they would. All too many marriages are friendships after the 15th anniversary, sharing no physical or deeply emotional intimacy. And ultimately if you could be your "real" self with your wife, you wouldn't be here, would you? There are parts that are very real, that can't be shared - and these are parts that are core to the very nature of marriage - hence the central pledge of monogamy. And yet they go unfulfilled. Can you tell her about you experiences here, be totally vulnerable, honest, open, be exactly who you are all the time and know you will be embraced with understanding? Even if she is unhappy with the information? Because you'd be able to express your very real desires for sexual intimacy - and sexual intimacy is emotional intimacy deny it all you like. It's a very real part of our psychological build and it linked on deep subconscious levels to all sorts of events in your life and details in your character.
Second, and this is pertaining to the Demimonde way of life, not to "escorting". I have met the associates of my lovers, I have met and dined with the neighbors, I know their friends, and in more then one case their children. I have even done work contract where they hired me on for my professional skill set to help on projects for their company. I have clothes that hang in their closet so I don't have to pack every time I go see them. I work from home while they're at the office, they come home for lunch that I prepare them, they go back to work, and then come home to prepare dinner together. When something terrible happens to them and they need someone, I'm on a flight over as soon as I can be. They can call me anytime of day or night. They know my real name (first and last) hang out my closest friends when they're in Toronto, have come by my office, some have met and gotten to know my SO, and I would very much like one day to start introducing them to my sibling. Some of these men were bachelors, some of these men were divorce, some were married but had a separate apartment or house. Our relationships aren't limited to "companionship" fantasies - we share our lives because there is a meaningful bond and because there is complete trust.
Also, and for privacy I dare not elaborate: when my friends have been in financial cirsis, I did not turn my back on them and never will. So it's not just about the money.
So frankly, it is real. And whether an outsider who has never experienced it approves is about as important of the Pope approving of your "hobby".
Yes they do. They don't list prices, but that doesn't change the fact that they're all over the internet on dating sites, trolling for guys. From Ashley Madison to Lavalife to MySpace. And when they meet men that are of better financial circumstances, they sure as hell are happy to take any gift or assistance given them. In fact, when girls are gossiping in places that boys cannot here them, don't imagine for a second they aren't hoping to meet some handsome man to take them on trips and fancy restaurants and never have to worry about earning their own income again - they want careers, but they're happy if anything they earn is "icing on the cake"
Monogamous women seeking sincere relationships do indeed exist, but even they don't mind a wild ride with someone that still makes them feel human and appreciated before they settle down with a man that makes them feel at peace and emotionally safe. You're living in a different era may dear man, and women are as sexually adventurous and as willing to have a good time without deep emotional investment as the men are.
You are correct that there is no shame in having clients - but that is not the only way to enter into an alternative lifesyle. Again, there is exchange of money between individuals that is not a consumer and vendor relationship all the time. I give my friends financial support and see them less then I do most of my clients. Am I their client, in exchange for friendship? I am not here to pander or cater to every whim a man has, even if he pays me. If I do not desire something, I will say no, and don't need an excuse. In a consumer vendor relationship there is a power imbalance, meaning the customer has every right to make demands within the confines of the service provided. I expect mutual fulfillment - how often are you in a restaurant where you are expected to fulfill your Waiter? Dentist? Lawyer? Masseuse? Maid? Even in business to business situations where both people are to some degree getting their backs scratched, there is almost always a tip in the balance scale, even if not achieve, certainly desired and strategically planned for. I expect equality in power at all times, which means I am not a vendor and they are not a customer.
My men are not my clients, they are my partners in bounded intimacy. There is no shame in having clients, and certainly in the very beginning of knowing someone, probably the first 6 months to one year, it's a close to a client relationship as I get, but I would dare never call them that.
Which brings me to phase two of this enjoyable philosophical debate:
The power of language. We so often complain about the modern world (and not just youth) loosing the old standards of courtesy and gentility that made the past seem like a lush and beautiful place. Living is an art when you have these things intact. A great deal of the power in old world standards was the choice of language being integral to the structure of their social interactions. According to the rules of definition, you can legitimately call me an escort, a whore, a courtesan, a prostitute and a lover. The choice of language applied by someone who would fall under the definition of "High Liver" (a French term for someone who has a deep philosophy of living life to the fullest and with quality) is not a matter of definition but of dignity, of class. People were very careful in their choice of language in the past, because it set a tone. It was simple good manners and thoughtfulness. Psychologists say the same - precision in language is important, the tone of the word means more then it's direct definition. When we ALLOW life to be poetry - as those in the more courteous past did - it can be allowed to exceed every level of mediocrity. By applying those the term prostitute to me, you are subconsciously limiting the level of ecstasy, trust, and warmth either one of us can achieve, you are setting a very specific tone. Whereas in the use of the word courtesan or escort, which ultimately means the same thing - you set a completely different tone, that suggests a level of respect and kindness. So even though all those words apply, I would not suggest you apply them.
This is an integral part to courteous and quality living that is lost in the modern world thanks to the sad state of language the internet has caused. Most have to use emoticons to express an emotion, because they cannot get the tone across in their use of words. Or they don't even bother using whole words. The thoughtfulness that well mannered speech requires is lost to many but a few. We are in the Big Brother age of short speak, which as Orwell suggested, limits practical and social intelligence.
They would never call me a prostitute, even though by all dictionary definition that is fair. I will return the gift of dignity, and never call them a client. So it is simply out of respect and kindness. I WANT them to think higher of themselves in my esteem. There is no shame in the world "client" but out of the old world idea of manners and thoughtfulness in all aspects of life, I will never apply it to them. They are my partners is bounded intimacy, that is the tone I want to set - despite what dictionary definitions may be applied to our meeting.
shadowsun said:
Then you need to get out more :mdr:
Many financially successful men spend a LOT of time away from their wives as their careers require them to, and in part they want to be away. They spend over 6 months of the year on the road. Some only see their wife and kids on weekends and holidays. There are also many wealthier marriages where they have 2-3 homes. They tell people they're "vacation" homes, or "that's the house in New York because we like to visit there often" but the truth is they lead two entirely separate lives and don't want to be the source of gossip. Don't think for a moment you know anything about the marriages of even your best friends - not even the children or parents of people know the inner workings of a marriage. If more people had the financial means to set up such a situation, I guarantee you they would. All too many marriages are friendships after the 15th anniversary, sharing no physical or deeply emotional intimacy. And ultimately if you could be your "real" self with your wife, you wouldn't be here, would you? There are parts that are very real, that can't be shared - and these are parts that are core to the very nature of marriage - hence the central pledge of monogamy. And yet they go unfulfilled. Can you tell her about you experiences here, be totally vulnerable, honest, open, be exactly who you are all the time and know you will be embraced with understanding? Even if she is unhappy with the information? Because you'd be able to express your very real desires for sexual intimacy - and sexual intimacy is emotional intimacy deny it all you like. It's a very real part of our psychological build and it linked on deep subconscious levels to all sorts of events in your life and details in your character.
Second, and this is pertaining to the Demimonde way of life, not to "escorting". I have met the associates of my lovers, I have met and dined with the neighbors, I know their friends, and in more then one case their children. I have even done work contract where they hired me on for my professional skill set to help on projects for their company. I have clothes that hang in their closet so I don't have to pack every time I go see them. I work from home while they're at the office, they come home for lunch that I prepare them, they go back to work, and then come home to prepare dinner together. When something terrible happens to them and they need someone, I'm on a flight over as soon as I can be. They can call me anytime of day or night. They know my real name (first and last) hang out my closest friends when they're in Toronto, have come by my office, some have met and gotten to know my SO, and I would very much like one day to start introducing them to my sibling. Some of these men were bachelors, some of these men were divorce, some were married but had a separate apartment or house. Our relationships aren't limited to "companionship" fantasies - we share our lives because there is a meaningful bond and because there is complete trust.
Also, and for privacy I dare not elaborate: when my friends have been in financial cirsis, I did not turn my back on them and never will. So it's not just about the money.
So frankly, it is real. And whether an outsider who has never experienced it approves is about as important of the Pope approving of your "hobby".
shadowsun said:
Yes they do. They don't list prices, but that doesn't change the fact that they're all over the internet on dating sites, trolling for guys. From Ashley Madison to Lavalife to MySpace. And when they meet men that are of better financial circumstances, they sure as hell are happy to take any gift or assistance given them. In fact, when girls are gossiping in places that boys cannot here them, don't imagine for a second they aren't hoping to meet some handsome man to take them on trips and fancy restaurants and never have to worry about earning their own income again - they want careers, but they're happy if anything they earn is "icing on the cake"
Now that, sir, is just naive. Have one of your lady escort friends go onto these websites and ask a few of the ladies out to dinner. See the stories she comes back to you with - yes they do. They tell the men they aren't seeing anyone else, because that's the fantasy they're buying - but they are. The gentlemen all too often higher a private investigator only to find out there are two others just like him that she's seeing. All they do is pull their profile off of one Sugar Daddy site when they meet a guy, and put it on a different site with different pictures and an altered bio. There is one difference between an escort and a sugar babe - escorts are honest.
Monogamous women seeking sincere relationships do indeed exist, but even they don't mind a wild ride with someone that still makes them feel human and appreciated before they settle down with a man that makes them feel at peace and emotionally safe. You're living in a different era may dear man, and women are as sexually adventurous and as willing to have a good time without deep emotional investment as the men are.
You are correct that there is no shame in having clients - but that is not the only way to enter into an alternative lifesyle. Again, there is exchange of money between individuals that is not a consumer and vendor relationship all the time. I give my friends financial support and see them less then I do most of my clients. Am I their client, in exchange for friendship? I am not here to pander or cater to every whim a man has, even if he pays me. If I do not desire something, I will say no, and don't need an excuse. In a consumer vendor relationship there is a power imbalance, meaning the customer has every right to make demands within the confines of the service provided. I expect mutual fulfillment - how often are you in a restaurant where you are expected to fulfill your Waiter? Dentist? Lawyer? Masseuse? Maid? Even in business to business situations where both people are to some degree getting their backs scratched, there is almost always a tip in the balance scale, even if not achieve, certainly desired and strategically planned for. I expect equality in power at all times, which means I am not a vendor and they are not a customer.
My men are not my clients, they are my partners in bounded intimacy. There is no shame in having clients, and certainly in the very beginning of knowing someone, probably the first 6 months to one year, it's a close to a client relationship as I get, but I would dare never call them that.
Which brings me to phase two of this enjoyable philosophical debate:
The power of language. We so often complain about the modern world (and not just youth) loosing the old standards of courtesy and gentility that made the past seem like a lush and beautiful place. Living is an art when you have these things intact. A great deal of the power in old world standards was the choice of language being integral to the structure of their social interactions. According to the rules of definition, you can legitimately call me an escort, a whore, a courtesan, a prostitute and a lover. The choice of language applied by someone who would fall under the definition of "High Liver" (a French term for someone who has a deep philosophy of living life to the fullest and with quality) is not a matter of definition but of dignity, of class. People were very careful in their choice of language in the past, because it set a tone. It was simple good manners and thoughtfulness. Psychologists say the same - precision in language is important, the tone of the word means more then it's direct definition. When we ALLOW life to be poetry - as those in the more courteous past did - it can be allowed to exceed every level of mediocrity. By applying those the term prostitute to me, you are subconsciously limiting the level of ecstasy, trust, and warmth either one of us can achieve, you are setting a very specific tone. Whereas in the use of the word courtesan or escort, which ultimately means the same thing - you set a completely different tone, that suggests a level of respect and kindness. So even though all those words apply, I would not suggest you apply them.
This is an integral part to courteous and quality living that is lost in the modern world thanks to the sad state of language the internet has caused. Most have to use emoticons to express an emotion, because they cannot get the tone across in their use of words. Or they don't even bother using whole words. The thoughtfulness that well mannered speech requires is lost to many but a few. We are in the Big Brother age of short speak, which as Orwell suggested, limits practical and social intelligence.
They would never call me a prostitute, even though by all dictionary definition that is fair. I will return the gift of dignity, and never call them a client. So it is simply out of respect and kindness. I WANT them to think higher of themselves in my esteem. There is no shame in the world "client" but out of the old world idea of manners and thoughtfulness in all aspects of life, I will never apply it to them. They are my partners is bounded intimacy, that is the tone I want to set - despite what dictionary definitions may be applied to our meeting.
