Made with Love

Privacy vs. Security

SillyGirl

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2017
Messages
7,246
https://www.nbcnews.com/technology/...se-choice-poisons-debate-nsa-leaks-6C10536226


A mystery gunman who allegedly fired 700 road-rage-inspired bullets at German drivers during the past five years was finally arrested in late June. Digital sleuthing was credited with ending the reign of driving terror. Germany’s E-ZPass-like system is off-limits to law enforcement, so police set up a temporary network that tracked license plates on the road and used the data to catch the suspect.

While the arrest has been celebrated, civil rights advocates have complained that thousands of innocent drivers were also caught up in the police dragnet, and have questioned its legality. The argument might sound absurd to American ears — would Germans really rather be shot at than have their license plates recorded? — but Germans are more sensitive to government overreach than Americans. A rabid debate about security and privacy has begun.
As the Edward Snowden affair enters its second month, Americans don't seem to have much appetite for the subtlety of such a debate. The Prism leak discussion has been framed repeatedly as a zero-sum game, pitting privacy on one side and security on the other.
"You can't have 100 percent security and also have 100 percent privacy," President Obama said on June 7, in his principal public statement in the issue, suggesting there is some dial which forces government officials to pick one over the other.
It's a false choice, say many security experts.
Liberty vs. control
"I've never liked the idea of security vs. privacy, because no one feels more secure in a surveillance state," said Bruce Schneier, security expert and author of Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Insecure World. "There's plenty of examples of security that doesn't infringe on privacy. They are all around. Door locks. Fences ... Firewalls. People are forgetting that quite a lot of security doesn't affect privacy. The real dichotomy is liberty vs. control."

Dan Solove, a privacy law expert at George Washington University Law School, said the privacy vs. security framing has interfered with what could be a healthy national debate about using high-tech tools to fight terror.
"You have pollsters and pundits and (National Intelligence Director James) Clapper saying, 'Do you want us to catch the terrorists or do you want privacy?' But that's a false choice. It's like asking, 'Do you want the police to exist or not?'" he said. "We already have the most invasive investigative techniques permissible with the right oversight. With probable cause you can search my home. ... People want limitations and transparency, so they can make a choice about how much surveillance (they) are willing to tolerate."
By creating an either/or tension between privacy and security, government officials have invented a heavy weapon to wield against those who raise civil liberties concerns, he said. It's easy to cast the choice in stark terms: Who wouldn't trade a little personal data to save even one American life?
'A bigger haystack'
An honest, open examination of surveillance programs might show the choice is not so simple, says Ashkan Soltani, an independent security researcher.
"The government feels like they need all this information in order to do its job, that there can't be security without them having access to everything. Well, that's a lazy or shortsighted way of seeing things," he says. "The idea I reject is that you need to violate everyone's privacy rather than be better at your job of identifying specific (targets).'"
Casting such wide nets is also ineffective, he argues. Collecting mountains and mountains of data simply means that when the time comes to find that proverbial needle in a haystack, you've simply created a bigger haystack.
"Law enforcement is being sold bill of goods that the more data you get, the better your security is. We find that is not true," Soltani said.
Collecting data is a hard habit to break, as many U.S. corporations have discovered after years of expensive data breaches. The NSA’s data hoard may be useful in future investigations, helping agents in the future in unpredictable ways, some argue. Schneier doesn't buy it.
"The NSA has this fetish for data, and will get it any way they can, and get as much as they can," he said. "But old ladies who hoard newspapers say the same thing, that someday, this might be useful."
Even worse, an overreliance on Big Data surveillance will shift focus from other security techniques that are both less invasive and potentially more effective, like old-fashioned “spycraft,” Soltani says.
The J. Edgar Hoover test
Soltani is worried that Americans, despite their vocal complaining about Washington politics, have forgotten history and are too trusting of their government when it comes to the exchange of liberty for safety.

"Right now, the abuses seem theoretical. There seems to be a lack of historical context, a lack of cases where the government has abused power," he said. "People seem to have forgotten about J. Edgar Hoover."
In fact, Solove has a test he uses to consider every extension of government power, what might be called the "Hoover test."
"Put J. Edgar Hoover in charge of the program. If your reaction is 'Yikes!' then there isn't adequate protection built in," he said. "One of the tests should be is how do we feel if we don't like the people in charge, because we don't know who will be in charge of it in the future."
The German motorway shooter example is instructive on how a system that provided both security and privacy might work. Police never considered acquiring all data, or demanding it from outside firms. They set up their own temporary collection tool, and German privacy officials are already demanding that the 60 to 80 million records collected from innocent people be handled with care.
In the world of email or mobile surveillance, it would be possible to imitate this example, Schneier says. Internet and phone record collection should not be indiscriminate, but limited, focused and temporary.
"Here's the middle path: transparency and oversight," he said. "We've already recognized that police need extraordinary powers to violate privacy ... but we have to recognize that when you give someone the power to violate privacy, that power is ripe for abuse."
Government officials have often said that oversight itself must be a secret: Mere disclosure of the existence of government surveillance programs tips off the terrorists. Schneier rejects this.
“So they tell the terrorists they are eavesdropping on email. What's the problem? We assume the terrorists don't know? This is fanciful nonsense," he said.
 
Good post. I rather have my licence checked than being shot, no?.
 
Privacy vs Security . . . or Liberty vs. control?

SillyGirl said:
'A bigger haystack' . . .
Casting such wide nets is also ineffective, he argues. Collecting mountains and mountains of data simply means that when the time comes to find that proverbial needle in a haystack, you've simply created a bigger haystack.
"Law enforcement is being sold bill of goods that the more data you get, the better your security is. We find that is not true," Soltani said.
Collecting data is a hard habit to break, as many U.S. corporations have discovered after years of expensive data breaches. The NSA’s data hoard may be useful in future investigations, helping agents in the future in unpredictable ways, some argue. Schneier doesn't buy it.
"The NSA has this fetish for data, and will get it any way they can, and get as much as they can," he said. "But old ladies who hoard newspapers say the same thing, that someday, this might be useful."...


Good analogy. Fascinating read. Thanks, SillyGirl.
 
Invasion of privacy even in the workplace has become a norm. I remember years ago an employer wouldn't dare set up camera in the shop now it can't be stopped. Technology is here to stay and the Germans will slowly come to accept it as North America has, is it a good thing, I have no idea.:unknw:
 
HOOKED said:
Invasion of privacy even in the workplace has become a norm. I remember years ago an employer wouldn't dare set up camera in the shop now it can't be stopped. Technology is here to stay and the Germans will slowly come to accept it as North America has, is it a good thing, I have no idea.:unknw:

I disagree. Accepting something bad because it's already here is just complacency. I still balk at the idea of being watched when I work, shop, travel, or surf the web. I find it despicable, reprehensible that I am not trusted, because of some potential threat I can cause, by simply being a homo sapien. This prevalent paradigm of mistrust affects so many aspects of our lives, mainly for me, morale. You don't trust me, but you expect me to trust you completely, just because you are in a position of authority over me? Why?

This is especially true for government, doesn't matter which one. Time and time again, government has proven incapable of handling the affairs of its people: Municipal, provincial, federal, multinational. From liberal to conservative. All they have proven is that they are bent on self interest. And we still meekly trust them that spying on us will lead to better security? Why?

Because they tell us? Because they promise it will protect us from some future threat that may or may not occur? That's the Pascal's wager argument which has proven to be a fallacy.

Don't rely on others, for they will surely fail you when it counts. You want security? YOU ensure it, by the rights and means YOU think are appropriate. YOU are responsible for your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those you love.
 
Boing said:
Good post. I rather have my licence checked than being shot, no?.

Yes, except for the part about being shot. You still have no garantee. You're buying into a false promise.
 
Nice Post SG, interesting........

To me it is erosion of Society.....that nothing will be private soon..
They argument that if you have nothing to hide you should not mind..
is crap....

Our Privacy is slowly being suck out, like getting a BJ
Each time you are sucked, your cum is spite or swallowed
then it ends up in a collective at the waste treatment plant
with all the other crap that has been given by us without any questions...
 
Another catch 22 scenario. None will ever be happy being spied on but the same people should understand there has to be a fine line when doing so. If it saves a life or many I don't have an issue if my private information ends up it the authorities' files. I do have an issue if it lands in the wrong hands though. How can that be prevented?. It can't, human error and bad apples will always exist.
 
Beef Jerky said:
Another catch 22 scenario. None will ever be happy being spied on but the same people should understand there has to be a fine line when doing so. If it saves a life or many I don't have an issue if my private information ends up it the authorities' files. I do have an issue if it lands in the wrong hands though. How can that be prevented?. It can't, human error and bad apples will always exist.

Have you actually read thearticle? Security experts say that the privacy vs security is a fallacy.
 
dreamblade said:
I disagree. Accepting something bad because it's already here is just complacency. I still balk at the idea of being watched when I work, shop, travel, or surf the web. I find it despicable, reprehensible that I am not trusted, because of some potential threat I can cause, by simply being a homo sapien. This prevalent paradigm of mistrust affects so many aspects of our lives, mainly for me, morale. You don't trust me, but you expect me to trust you completely, just because you are in a position of authority over me? Why?

This is especially true for government, doesn't matter which one. Time and time again, government has proven incapable of handling the affairs of its people: Municipal, provincial, federal, multinational. From liberal to conservative. All they have proven is that they are bent on self interest. And we still meekly trust them that spying on us will lead to better security? Why?

Because they tell us? Because they promise it will protect us from some future threat that may or may not occur? That's the Pascal's wager argument which has proven to be a fallacy.

Don't rely on others, for they will surely fail you when it counts. You want security? YOU ensure it, by the rights and means YOU think are appropriate. YOU are responsible for your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those you love.

Great points DB. Big brother is watching more and more.
 
Back
Top Bottom