Free Trade

[Madman]

I believe free trade is ruining our economy. North America is losing jobs to third world countries mainly due to cheaper labour costs and less red tape, corporations are lobbying and forcing pay cuts and job losses as everyone is in a rush to the bottom.

We now even have the government trying to axe their employees and their pays, which will lead to more cuts in the private sector. I know many of you agree with this but trust me it will hit everyone as the private sector follows suit and the economy starts to shrivel up like a dick in cold water.

We are losing Direct Energy along with 500 jobs. Albeit they are moving to the US because they are not satisfied with Ontario's deregulation policies.

I would love to see the clock turn back and have free trade abolished, but that's me. a bloody lefty and proud of it. Of course it would only work if the US pulled the plug.

If any of you caught the Presidents hopeful debate the other night. The moderator asked them how are they going to save jobs from going over seas. The only thing Santoro came up with was cut the corporate tax to half. WTF, so more CEO's and upper management can line their pockets further!

They should double their tax if they do not create good paying full time jobs period.

Ok my rants over and I need to go get some sleep. Peace out, don't get all excited Peace I wasn't referring to you!

 

[peace]

I think Guido will be disappointed. :biggrin:

 

[tboy]

Just one thing: it isn't free trade that ruined it, free trade only involves Mexico and the US....it is the public's desire to move all manufacturing and base jobs offshore...well, not really the public's but companies wanting to reduce manufacturing costs.......since we all want lower priced items.

One thing about the public sector jobs: who do you think pays their wages? The poorest since they're the ones who need their services the most. (ie: public transit). I have no problem with cutting public sector jobs or renegotiating their wages to bring them inline with the current job market. For eg: if company a can collect garbage and make a profit and pay their guys $20.00 per hour, and cut costs to the public, then they should be awarded the contract. Otherwise, keeping it as it is, union, the public will just end up paying more......

But as you state, it is the majority of the profits going to a select few that is the root of the problem here and in the US. As I've stated over and over, there is going to be a revolution, and it ain't going to be pretty......

 

[Jesus Quintana]

"

We now even have the government trying to axe their employees and their pays, which will lead to more cuts in the private sector."
I take issue with this statement. The public sector is a drag on the economy not a boon. One government job doesn't create more work for the private sector - it only takes more out of the pockets of tax payers. Maybe part of the whole issue that you aren't seeing is how the bureaucrats seem to multiply. I often listen to the bullshit about how the poor public sector employees could make 3 times as much in the private sector - but that they are so altruistic that they will stay - if we match private sector wages.
Oh yah but don't take away there gold plated pension plans and benefits.
I'm looking forward to a shrinking bureaucrat class. The government needs to be run more like a business with accountability being the number 1 job requirement .​

 

[Chunky]

"

We now even have the government trying to axe their employees and their pays, which will lead to more cuts in the private sector."
I take issue with this statement. The public sector is a drag on the economy not a boon. One government job doesn't create more work for the private sector - it only takes more out of the pockets of tax payers. Maybe part of the whole issue that you aren't seeing is how the bureaucrats seem to multiply. I often listen to the bullshit about how the poor public sector employees could make 3 times as much in the private sector - but that they are so altruistic that they will stay - if we match private sector wages.
Oh yah but don't take away there gold plated pension plans and benefits.
I'm looking forward to a shrinking bureaucrat class. The government needs to be run more like a business with accountability being the number 1 job requirement .​

I agree with you, the bureaucrats should be taken to task but I think and madman could correct me if I'm mistaken but he's referring to the front line workers. The average pay for a full time front line work is $20 to $25 with decent benefits. It really isn't great money it's only a living in my opinion.

 

[Robintheboywonder]

One thing about the public sector jobs: who do you think pays their wages? The poorest since they're the ones who need their services the most. (ie: public transit). I have no problem with cutting public sector jobs or renegotiating their wages to bring them inline with the current job market. For eg: if company a can collect garbage and make a profit and pay their guys $20.00 per hour, and cut costs to the public, then they should be awarded the contract. Otherwise, keeping it as it is, union, the public will just end up paying more......
..

I work for the City of Toronto and now have to deal with the 2 fritter brothers who are threatening to take away my job. I earn just over $23.00 an hour and work pretty damn hard for it.

I do very well for myself but that is because I also run an internet business which I had to or I would barely get by on $600 a week net cheque. Benefits aren't bad but I also contribute quite a bit of money and I also notice I contribute quite a bit of money to the tax base too. I'm a tax payer too!

Sick days, yeah I get him but have to go through hoops when I use one now a days. It's not as easy as it is portrayed in the media. Sure anyone would want the job from what they read and hear but that tune quickly changes when new hires come in and spend a month in the ranks.

I know I can't change your mind but remember one thing; the grass is not always greener on the other side.

 

[tboy]

Ok robin, I shouldn't lump all the public employees into one basket. I know miller axed a bunch of your wage increases while giving himself a nice hefty INCREASE (which should have raised warning flags for all those concerned).

I refer to the very publicized TTC employees and their outrageous wages. ie: cleaners making $25 an hour to start.....That's fricken RIDICULOUS. I also refer to garbage collectors starting at $25.00 an hour....again outrageous....

I don't know exactly what you do, and I'm sure you work hard for your $23.00 but seriously, I have to supply my own tools (including $10,000 worth of power tools ie: chop saw, table saw etc) have to supply my own safety equipment: ie hard hat, safety boots/shoes, have to supply my own foul weather gear, etc.) and I'm currently earning less than you. Plus I have to spend about $100.00 per week getting to the site (which is currently in the next town over) etc etc etc. Plus I have to deal with the weather....

I am also referring to brain dead fucking highway robbery situations like the sales tax collectors. When they brought in the HST, the PST collectors who were employed by the province were given massive severance packages yet not only did they not have to actually change jobs, they stayed at the same fricken DESK. They just had to change the way they collected the money....FUUUUUCKKK MEEEEEEEEEE.

Ok, it's not only public sector employees but auto union employees as well. I met a chick online and went out one evening. We got around to what we did for a living and it came up that she worked for GM. It was getting late and I said "don't you have to get up for work in the morning"? "Nope, I'm off....getting full pay, full benefits and have been this way for...." wait for it "18 months and no end in sight".....FUUUUCKKK MEEEEEEEE then I see on the news that GM is actually paying more employees NOT to work than TO actually build fucking cars......

 

[Jesus Quintana]

I know a guy who worked at the Ford plant in St. Thomas. He lived in London, didn't own a car but that was OK because Ford ran buses back and forth. Plus he got 18 months pay when they shut down....

 

[LickingGravity]

The public sector employees get a bad name mainly when their pay and benefits often are significantly higher than an equivalent private sector job. I agree $23 an hour doesn't sound like much but then again I have no idea what your job is and what your benefits are.

Paid sick days, indexed benefit based pensions, jobs for life, and the sheer number of public sector employees etc etc all add up to an amount we can no longer afford. Eventually something will have to give as it now is in Europe.

Big changes are needed and hopefully we can guide our way to a soft landing rather than a crash landing as in Greece.

 

[RAWD]

I have a problem with protecting inefficiency. Maybe I'm just weird that way.

 

[Melonballs2]

I am also referring to brain dead fucking highway robbery situations like the sales tax collectors. When they brought in the HST, the PST collectors who were employed by the province were given massive severance packages yet not only did they not have to actually change jobs, they stayed at the same fricken DESK. They just had to change the way they collected the money....FUUUUUCKKK MEEEEEEEEEE.

Ok, it's not only public sector employees but auto union employees as well. I met a chick online and went out one evening. We got around to what we did for a living and it came up that she worked for GM. It was getting late and I said "don't you have to get up for work in the morning"? "Nope, I'm off....getting full pay, full benefits and have been this way for...." wait for it "18 months and no end in sight".....FUUUUCKKK MEEEEEEEE then I see on the news that GM is actually paying more employees NOT to work than TO actually build fucking cars......

These examples are exactly what gets the hair on the back of the neck up in Canadians.

We have good and bad employees in both the public and private sector. The difference is that much of the public's dirty laundry is now being waved in public. It has become the trendy topic for the media and so the public sector along with the unions have become the whipping boys sometimes rightfully so and other times wrongly.

I think the TTC drivers have a rather difficult job. I've seen both friendly and arrogant TTC employees. It's not fair to paint them all with the same brush and the TTC management from what I've read and heard aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. I am looking forward to get an inside look into the TTC environment when the Stintson's Undercover Boss airs.

Tboy, you are being under paid and I am saying this in all seriousness. I have a few close friends that have now retired but worked on bridges under a union. They worked in the same conditions you have been and were earning much more with benefits, pension and overtime included. I'm not sure about clothing and sick days although if I remember correctly sick days of some form were included.

 

[tboy]

Thanks Melon, and yeah, after my 3 month period is up, you can bet I'm going to be knocking on the big boss's door....

The thing about inefficiencies and bad employees, is that in the private sector, for the most part, they are weeded out. In the public sector, they are protected. This even applies to the entire organization. In the private sector, if a company isn't performing well, and the costs outweigh the profits, the company closes down. Yet in government, they just raise taxes. I remember back in the 80s there was a story in the paper about how, after all the cheques were cut, the approvals gotten, the invoice processed, a toilet seat cost $500.00. I can see this because at a company I worked for, to get a $5.00 item, it cost the company $50.00 due to all the approvals and paperwork. Needless to say, the company went tits up and was eventually bought for a song (and hopefully the new owners ran a more lucrative ship!).

 

[Madman]

Just one thing: it isn't free trade that ruined it, free trade only involves Mexico and the US....it is the public's desire to move all manufacturing and base jobs offshore...well, not really the public's but companies wanting to reduce manufacturing costs.......since we all want lower priced items.

One thing about the public sector jobs: who do you think pays their wages? The poorest since they're the ones who need their services the most. (ie: public transit). I have no problem with cutting public sector jobs or renegotiating their wages to bring them inline with the current job market. For eg: if company a can collect garbage and make a profit and pay their guys $20.00 per hour, and cut costs to the public, then they should be awarded the contract. Otherwise, keeping it as it is, union, the public will just end up paying more......

But as you state, it is the majority of the profits going to a select few that is the root of the problem here and in the US. As I've stated over and over, there is going to be a revolution, and it ain't going to be pretty......

I believe you are mistaken, the FTA is with many more countries than Mexico.https://trade.gov/fta/

As for garbage men being paid a decent wage, honestly it's not a job I would do for $20 an hour. Most of them drive and jump in and out or are hanging off the side of truck. I've spoken to a few of them at their end of their shift and these boys are beat.

As for TTC have you seen their fares lately. My friend it's not a poor man's ride any-more and they will be going higher and higher.

You see, Doug/Rob Ford claims to want to cut taxes but all he wants to do is replace higher taxes with user fees and shift most of the public jobs to his buddies in the private sector.

As other's have noted I totally agree with getting the politicians and fat cat bosses in line, clamping down on the gold plated pensions and other ridiculous perks. The burr that gets under my saddle is when the front line workers are made the scape goats. I don't reserve this burr for just unionised workers, I agree with Melon you are under paid if Robin is earning more than you at $23 per hour, especially if the bosses are living the lives of Riley while crying poor at raise time!

 

[tboy]

Mad: we agree about the BS benefits the fat cats get (don't get me started on that) and I don't argue that being a garbage collector is a shitty job but think about it: if you want a better job, get an education, learn a skill, become a trade....wait, no you don't have to do all that (and spend thousands on schooling and training) just be a garbage man or a TTC janitor.....

The problem is, unskilled menial jobs used to be the lowest paid. Why? Because they required no skill.....now, they are surpassing skilled jobs in terms of wages. I remember when the TTC struck because they weren't going to pay the janitors $25.00 per hour. They compared that wage with a lab technician (you know, the ones who do your blood work and detect cancer etc). So, you go to school for 4 yrs, spend $50,000 on it, and get a job at a lab....or, you can drop out of school in grade 8 and make the same living (better with benefits and job security).

So, many unionists say "why shouldn't a garbage man make the same as a lab tech"....well, skill for one, schooling for another, error issues (where if a garbage man puts the wrong can in the wrong order, bfd but if a lab tech fucks up your test for cancer...well...you could go untreated and die).

Now, once again, if the city were a business, and the cost to pick up garbage at the current rates became too much, and the business couldn't turn a profit, then it would close. Then the garbage men would be out of jobs. Yet because it is a "city" issue, they just raise taxes, add taxes, and squeeze the citizens for more money.

Really, it is no different than say, famous people getting millions for a role in a movie. People pay through the nose to see movies etc and I equate it to a whale shark or a blue whale scooping up millions of tons of plankton. It's just another way for a few to take money from many putting THEM in hardship so the few don't have to be.

As I've said: the whole system is out of whack and I fear that it's going to break at some point. Probably not in my lifetime, but trust me: it's going to happen.

 

[Madman]

We agree on some and disagree on others, we'd have a fun time negotiating a contract sitting at other sides of the table wouldn't we LOL?

Take a look at Greece, they've cut public sector jobs out of necessity and their economy is in further decline.

People not working throws the economies into recession. Less taxes, less people with money to buy products.

Honestly and I know you don't believe the corporations are going to give people good paying jobs if they don't have too.

A big issue with the city is job security. The big line 'nobody should have jobs for life" since when has job security become such a bad word. Fuck, I would think people with job security buy homes, cars and other goods plus pay taxes, I think that's a good thing.

I don't know dude but I see the debacle going on in the US. It's not about saving the countries economy it's about how the Republicans could fuck up Obama and stop him from actually trying to do anything. Don't get me wrong, I know the Democrats would do the same bullshit, it's all about power and money and fuck the little people.

 

[a 1 player]

Free trade...

Canada = resources
Mexico = labour
U.S.A. = sales of finished product

Pretty simple equation.

 

[Madman]

Free trade...

Canada = resources
Mexico = labour
U.S.A. = sales of finished product

Pretty simple equation.

That's my beef , labour and it's not just Mexico, add China and India to that mix plus a host of other third world countries.

Without jobs our kids will suffer except for the elite and smartest but I feel sorry for the rest.

 

[tboy]

Well Mad, it would be a cool negotiation to say the least! I agree with your comments re: US politics too and don't kid yourself, it is happening here too. Politicians are more concerned with getting into and staying in power than actually doing their fricken job. Except for Layton, every politician I've ever seen or heard has promised the world to get elected, they backs down on the majority of their campaign promises.....

I know what you mean about "job security" but the problem is, a lot of city/government job security isn't due to merit.....I worked for a major Canadian Retailer at their home office and was working my way up the ranks...17 yrs.....and got phased out....at that point I swore I would always have a back up plan and NEVER care more for the company/career than myself. One thing I took notice of while working there: 4% increases, talks of cut backs, tightening the belt while you read about the public disclosure of the big wigs getting million dollar signing bonus', company cars, etc etc while the rest of us are brown bagging it because we can no longer afford to pay $5.00 for our lunch.....

I know someone corrected me on this but up here, 99% of the country's growth and wealth goes to the top 30% of the population (in the US 99.7% of the growth/wealth goes to the top .01% of the population).....I don't care about people making millions or a decent living, but pass some of that good fortune down the pipe FFS.

The biggest problem is: that top .01% is busy taking care of themselves and saying "fuck everyone else, let THEM eat my scraps"....well, know who else had that attitude? A chick named Marie Antoinette and she lost her head because of it......

I mean, take Bill Gates for example. I applaud him and his wife for vowing to give away his fortune before he dies but dude, instead of helping east indians have more babies, help your OWN fricken countrymen FFS. The reason you're so fricken rich is partly due to the Feds giving you billions in tax breaks...put that back into the economy! Fuck, instead of charging $100 for your POS O/S, take a hit, only make 50% profit on it and sell it for $49......

And don't even get me started on the wall street CEOs who used public money to give themselves bonus'......they should be either a) shot b) locked up or c) have all their assets seized.....no ifs ands or buts about it. That is not only wrong on so many levels, but what makes it even MORE wrong is the feds doing nothing about it....

 

[Jesus Quintana]

You've pretty much nailed the big problem with one simple statement T: "....

the whole system is out of whack and I fear that it's going to break at some point. Probably not in my lifetime, but trust me: it's going to happen."

This type of thinking is what has driven the greediest of the greedy. It may not break down until after they are gone and they don't give a shit then. The BEST part of capitalism is what Henry Ford did years ago. He hired more people so that those people could afford to buy more cars so that he had to make more cars and have to hire more people. Capitalism isn't the green eyed monster that many people portray, however the "greed is good" philosophy can only work in the short term. That type of thinking only serves the SHYSTER.

Curiously, and I say this with the greatest respect, the most astute business people I have met were Jewish. Their outlook wasn't ever to make a fast killing and hope that everything stays OK. They plan for family wealth for GENERATIONS. And while they are at it, why not let everyone eat a little bit too.

The Greek example right now is showing that unless planning for the future includes thinking about who is going to pick up the check (and I don't mean planning for Germany to pick it up) then there is going to be a shit storm.

I'm anticipating seeing a shitstorm hit both India and China in the next 25 or 30 years. What do you think will happen when 1.4 billion poor Chinese look around at the rest and say "Where is my Ferrari and Rolls Royce?" ​

 

[jumpingjackflash]

I was doing some work for a company who's name shall remain nameless. Their company was holding yearly review meetings with it's employees. I had become friendly with several of the ladies in the office. I tend to do that, it pays off in the end, it really does.:biggrin: They were all upset because they were all being told they would not be receiving any bonuses for last year and if the company can find it in the budget maybe they would get a 1.5% increase.

The following day I was in a meeting with the CEO and upper management and as I was walking in they were all in the middle of thanking the CEO for their $7500.00 bonuses. To top it all off the CEO had Mercedes brochures on his desk. He was obviously car shopping.

I kept my mouth shut and fulfilled my contract but it really opened my eyes. It's a me me world for most part and everyone looks at situations from a point of self interest.