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Unionized Workers Earn More. Does that Piss You Off?

Madman

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My colleague here at the School of HRM at York, Tony Fang, found a while back that the union wage premium in Canada is about 7.7% (see page 13), meaning that unionized workers earn that much more on average than nonunion workers. Unionized workers also receive significantly better benefits and pension plans.

If you are a nonunion worker earning less than what a unionized worker earns at a competitor, for example, a rational response would be to say, “Man, why am I working for so much less? I should join a union too.” Some people do think that way. However, many people respond to hearing of good wages and benefits enjoyed by unionized workers with hostility, as in, “those damned union workers, we should get rid of unions

. I’ve noted before how neo-conservatives like to argue that good wages negotiated by unions are a terrible, terrible thing, as if low wages are much preferable.

I started thinking about this after I was interviewed on a radio station a while back, and the host said that people are angry at the wages union workers are being paid, and she asked me what I had to say to those people. I said that maybe they should join a union. The host gagged and almost died right there on the spot. Apparently that wasn’t the answer she was looking for.

Sounded like common sense to me. What was the “correct” answer to that question?

Why do people get mad that other workers earn more than them? I was reading an interesting book the other day by Robert Frank, called

He provides an interesting insight into this question by using a model that is something like this. He imagines two worlds that are identical (ie. prices of goods are the same in both worlds), except for one thing:

World A: You earn $100,000, but everyone else earns $120,000.
World B: You earn $80,000, but everyone else earns $60,000.

In World A, you can buy a bigger house and nicer stuff than in World B, but everyone else can buy even nicer stuff and more stuff than you. In World B, you can afford less of everything, but that would still be more than everyone else could buy. In other words, you are relatively better off in World B compared to everyone else, but you are absolutely better off in World A.
Which world would you prefer to live in?

Frank says that most people select World B. They are concerned more about how they fare relative to others than the absolute level of their income. That might help explain why many nonunion workers get so angry when they learn that unionized workers earn more than them.

It might also help explain why the vast majority of unionized workers are happy with being in the union: Lipset and Meltz found that 90.5% of American and 85.8% of Canadian union members would vote to remain in the union if asked.

But it still doesn’t explain why nonunion workers don’t clammer to join unions in order to try and climb the ladder of relative earnings. Is it because they believe there are “negatives” associated with being a union that outweigh the “benefits”? Do you have any explanation for why nonunion workers get angry at higher union wages?

- See more at:


Great Article!
 
papasmerf said:
Equal pay for equal work is a foreign concept to some

I agree so lets bring the wages up to a fair living wage as opposed to bringing them down so only the man in the ivory tower lives a good and prosperous life.
 
Madman said:
I agree so lets bring the wages up to a fair living wage as opposed to bringing them down so only the man in the ivory tower lives a good and prosperous life.

A living wage concept is just that

As you raise wages you also raise the cost of doing business.
At that point a company is forced to raise prices or reduce costs.

There however does come a point where a company prices themselves out of the market and closes up shop.
 
papasmerf said:
A living wage concept is just that

As you raise wages you also raise the cost of doing business.
At that point a company is forced to raise prices or reduce costs.

There however does come a point where a company prices themselves out of the market and closes up shop.

but let me ask you this,

In the last decade it's being all about cutting services, chopping wages, contracting out. This has been happening all across North America, now my question is??

Why have taxes, products i.e. gas, hydro, food TAXES continually gone up. All these items are necessities not luxuries yet some people are feathering their nest very nicely while majority are only getting by cheque to cheque and this seems fair to you?

If right wing conservative minded people keep having their way as they have over the last decade, our costs will be through the roof and with far less services that we once enjoyed NOT TO MENTION no job security witch is the staple of a strong economy.
 
Madman said:
but let me ask you this,

In the last decade it's being all about cutting services, chopping wages, contracting out. This has been happening all across North America, now my question is??

Why have taxes, products i.e. gas, hydro, food TAXES continually gone up. All these items are necessities not luxuries yet some people are feathering their nest very nicely while majority are only getting by cheque to cheque and this seems fair to you?

If right wing conservatives minded people keep having their way as they have over the last decade, our costs will be through the roof and with far less services that we once enjoyed NOT TO MENTION no job security with is the staple of a strong economy.

The fact is services that are required occasionally are better served through the open bid process.

What myself and true conservatives want is lower taxes and smaller governments.
Also government pay scales in line with the private sector.

Also making it illegal for any office holder or contract administrator to profit form their office (insider trading)
 
papasmerf said:
The fact is services that are required occasionally are better served through the open bid process.

What myself and true conservatives want is lower taxes and smaller governments.
Also government pay scales in line with the private sector.

Also making it illegal for any office holder or contract administrator to profit form their office (insider trading)

You're talking like some goddamn commie (to quote McCarthy or someone with an Irish name...)
 
oldguyzer said:
You're talking like some goddamn commie (to quote McCarthy or someone with an Irish name...)

more like the hunter of RINOs
 
papasmerf said:
The fact is services that are required occasionally are better served through the open bid process.

What myself and true conservatives want is lower taxes and smaller governments.
Also government pay scales in line with the private sector.

Also making it illegal for any office holder or contract administrator to profit form their office (insider trading)

The fact of the matter is under Conservative parties this has not happened, instead we get jobs slashed, less work , less services and higher taxes. I don't consider creating part time jobs and minimum wage jobs as a successful government achievement.

If people are earning a fair dollar and feel secure they spend money which makes the economy grow.
 
The only thing I get excited about is the public sectors unions openly campaigning for the Libs and once they elected "negotiating" a sweetheart contract. Can anybody say conflict of interest?

Union membership is dropping nearly everywhere in NA except in the public sector in Canada.
 
Madman said:
The fact of the matter is under Conservative parties this has not happened, instead we get jobs slashed, less work , less services and higher taxes. I don't consider creating part time jobs and minimum wage jobs as a successful government achievement.

If people are earning a fair dollar and feel secure they spend money which makes the economy grow.

Government only creates jobs within the government.

It is private enterprise that creates all other jobs.

I do agree with you that low wage jobs are not the solution to the receding economy

Manufacturing creates an economy around itself as does mining for natural resources.

They are capable of bringing new dollars into a region as opposed to the tax and spend plan of recirculating the dollars already held within that economy.

When you manufacture a product that is sold outside of your region money flows in.

when you have nothing to sell, money is only recirculated, creating an artificial economy that will collapse in on itself.
 
LickingGravity said:
The only thing I get excited about is the public sectors unions openly campaigning for the Libs and once they elected "negotiating" a sweetheart contract. Can anybody say conflict of interest?

Union membership is dropping nearly everywhere in NA except in the public sector in Canada.

I learned 2 decades ago that a growing economy is best served by voting against the politicians my union recommends.
 
LickingGravity said:
The only thing I get excited about is the public sectors unions openly campaigning for the Libs and once they elected "negotiating" a sweetheart contract. Can anybody say conflict of interest?

Union membership is dropping nearly everywhere in NA except in the public sector in Canada.

Do you feel the same way about big business donations to the Conservatives and do you believe once they accept their donation they do not get any favors?Hmmmmmm

papasmerf said:
Government only creates jobs within the government.

It is private enterprise that creates all other jobs.

I do agree with you that low wage jobs are not the solution to the receding economy

Manufacturing creates an economy around itself as does mining for natural resources.

They are capable of bringing new dollars into a region as opposed to the tax and spend plan of recirculating the dollars already held within that economy.

When you manufacture a product that is sold outside of your region money flows in.

when you have nothing to sell, money is only recirculated, creating an artificial economy that will collapse in on itself.

I do agree with you and now my question is ......which government brought in free trade which devastated manufacturing? There is no possible way workers here can work for under $2 an hour as they are currently doing in China, India etc...

papasmerf said:
I learned 2 decades ago that a growing economy is best served by voting against the politicians my union recommends.

When your wage one day gets slashed to half, benefits slashed or maybe letting you go for the cheaper less expensive young blood, you may change your tune.


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Madman said:
Do you feel the same way about big business donations to the Conservatives and do you believe once they accept their donation they do not get any favors?Hmmmmmm



I do agree with you and now my question is ......which government brought in free trade which devastated manufacturing? There is no possible way workers here can work for under $2 an hour as they are currently doing in China, India etc...



When your wage one day gets slashed to half, benefits slashed or maybe letting you go for the cheaper less expensive young blood, you may change your tune.

NAFTA was supported by my union, it said it would bring jobs............I said in a meeting yes jobs to Mexico.
About a decade in the union said with all it good intentions NAFTA cost us jobs.

If you want to you could refuse to buy products made outside of North America...........I say that because as Canada's biggest trade partner out economies are tied together.

Nature of the beast is someone will always find a way to do it cheaper but often not as good.
I used to work for a company who belived anyone could build it but you will call us when it does not work.
I left them because the direction they were moving did not fit into the direction I wanted to go.
 
papasmerf said:
NAFTA was supported by my union, it said it would bring jobs............I said in a meeting yes jobs to Mexico.
About a decade in the union said with all it good intentions NAFTA cost us jobs.

.

I don't agree, perhaps your particular union but NAFTA was not supported by unions in general.

https://www-personal.umich.edu/~eian/Dreiling.pdf

I do however also blame the democrats because if memory serves me it was Clinton who signed off on Nafta.
 
papasmerf said:
you need to remember it was the Clinton's telling us this is a good deal.

No way the union was going against them

You posted before my edit and yes I do hold Clinton responsible but free trade was a conservative initiative unfortunately the Liberals and Democrats drank the Kool-Aid, THE NDP DID NOT!!
 
one thing I have always said it that when McDonalds and Walmart are the towns only employers.
The people who work there will not be able to shop or eat there.

Manufacturing, logging and mining built North America.

Tourism and service industries will only slow its demise, not save it.
 
Primo

If I may add to that.
Unions brought about the 5/40 work week
Vacation pay and medical ins.

Union apprenticeships have produced some of the most qualified tradesmen in the country.
Not so much in manufacturing or government. But in the building trades.
Partnerships between labor and business has created a solid and skilled work force in the building trades.

Now with that said in a thriving economy there is a shortage of qualified labor so a premium can be paid.
Conversely when downsizing comes the strong should survive not the protected.
Those we work for has the right to expect to get what they paying for.
Labor is obligated to do the best job possible. I call that pride in workmanship.

For the most part we all work for someone else. Be it the employer or customer and they deserve the best.
 
That solves everything :SayWhat?:

and the host said that people are angry at the wages union workers are being paid, and she asked me what I had to say to those people. I said that maybe they should join a union
 
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