Made with Love

Gay Wedding Cake Case: Free Speech or Discrimination?

:YMAPPLAUSE::YMAPPLAUSE::YMAPPLAUSE:

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of a Colorado baker who refused to bake a cake to celebrate the marriage of a same sex couple because of a religious objection.

The ruling was 7-2.
The court held that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission showed hostility toward the baker based on his religious beliefs. The ruling is a win for baker Jack Phillips, who cited his beliefs as a Christian, but leaves unsettled broader constitutional questions on religious liberty.
"Today's decision is remarkably narrow, and leaves for another day virtually all of the major constitutional questions that this case presented," said Steve Vladeck, CNN Supreme Court analyst and professor at the University of Texas School of Law. "It's hard to see the decision setting a precedent."

The ruling, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, held that members of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission showed animus toward Phillips specifically when they suggested his claims of religious freedom were made to justify discrimination.
The case was one of the most anticipated rulings of the term and was considered by some as a follow-up from the court's decision three years ago to clear the way for same-sex marriage nationwide. That opinion, also written by Kennedy, expressed respect for those with religious objections to gay marriage.

"Our society has come to the recognition that gay persons and gay couples cannot be treated as social outcasts or as inferior in dignity and worth," he wrote Monday.
Alliance Defending Freedom Senior Counsel Kristen Waggoner, who represented Phillips, praised the ruling.
"Jack serves all customers; he simply declines to express messages or celebrate events that violate his deeply held beliefs," Waggoner said in a statement. "Creative professionals who serve all people should be free to create art consistent with their convictions without the threat of government punishment."
She further added that the case "will affect a number of cases for years to come in free exercise jurisprudence. That's how the court's decisions work."

Waggoner said Phillips is "relieved" at the court's decision and that he will be working with the Alliance Defending Freedom to determine when to move forward to continue making wedding cakes.
"It's been a long, six-year battle where his family business, his income, has been hanging in the balance. He's also, obviously, handling a large volume of calls himself and looking out for the protection of his family, to be candid," Waggoner said.

Louise Melling, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, emphasized the narrowness of the opinion.
"The court reversed the Masterpiece Cakeshop decision based on concerns unique to the case but reaffirmed its longstanding rule that states can prevent the harms of discrimination in the marketplace, including against LGBT people," Melling said in a statement.

Because Justice Clarence Thomas concurred in part, the judgment of the court on the case was 7-2 but the opinion on the rationale was 6-2.
Religious tolerance

Kennedy wrote that there is room for religious tolerance, pointing specifically to how the Colorado commission treated Phillips by downplaying his religious liberty concerns.
"At the same time the religious and philosophical objections to gay marriage are protected views and in some instances protected forms of expression," Kennedy wrote, adding that the "neutral consideration to which Phillips was entitled was compromised here."

"The commission's hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment's guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion," Kennedy said, adding to say that the case was narrow.
"The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market," the opinion states.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, in her dissent which was joined by Justice Sonia Sotomayor, argued that "when a couple contacts a bakery for a wedding cake, the product they are seeking is a cake celebrating their wedding -- not a cake celebrating heterosexual weddings or same-sex weddings -- and that is the service (the couple) were denied."

Baker emphasizes Christian beliefs

Phillips opened the bakery in 1993, knowing at the outset that there would be certain cakes he would decline to make in order to abide by his religious beliefs.

"I didn't want to use my artistic talents to create something that went against my Christian faith," he said in an interview with CNN last year, noting that he has also declined to make cakes to celebrate Halloween.
In 2012, David Mullins and Charlie Craig asked Phillips to bake a cake to celebrate their planned wedding, which would be performed in another state. Phillips said he couldn't create the product they were looking for without violating his faith.
"The Bible says, 'In the beginning there was male and female,'" Phillips said.

He offered to make any other baked goods for the men. "At which point they both stormed out and left," he said.
Mullins and Craig filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, which ruled in their favor, citing a state anti-discrimination law. Phillips took his case to the Colorado Court of Appeals, arguing that requiring him to provide a wedding cake for the couple violated his constitutional right to freedom of speech and free exercise of religion. The court held that the state anti-discrimination law was neutral and generally applicable and did not compel Phillips' Masterpiece Cakeshop to "support or endorse any particular religious view." It simply prohibited Phillips from discriminating against potential customers on account of their sexual orientation.

"This case is about more than us, and it's not about cakes," Mullins said in an interview last year. "It's about the right of gay people to receive equal service."
The Trump administration sided with Phillips.

"A custom wedding cake is not an ordinary baked good; its function is more communicative and artistic than utilitarian," Solicitor General Noel Francisco argued. "Accordingly, the government may not enact content-based laws commanding a speaker to engage in protected expression: An artist cannot be forced to paint, a musician cannot be forced to play, and a poet cannot be forced to write."


 
Before some of you get upset for my clapping. Read this again.



Accordingly, the government may not enact content-based laws commanding a speaker to engage in protected expression: An artist cannot be forced to paint, a musician cannot be forced to play, and a poet cannot be forced to write."
 
Admiral said:
Before some of you get upset for my clapping. Read this again.



Accordingly, the government may not enact content-based laws commanding a speaker to engage in protected expression: An artist cannot be forced to paint, a musician cannot be forced to play, and a poet cannot be forced to write."


Don't know why anybody would be upset with logic, and freedom to exercise their rights.

We could use more of that here in Canada.
 
Business is business. Why care about content ? Hire an open-minded helper so you’re not offended.
 
[h=1]'No Gays Allowed'[/h]
no-gays-allowed-sign-e2ef8ae1257dae53.jpg


'No Gays Allowed': Tennessee store owner puts sign back up after SCOTUS ruling | syracuse.com
 
Let these idiots put up their signs. They'll lose enough customers and go out of business. Let the market do its job.

Do gays actually buy enough hardware and roofing supplies to seriously affect the industry? I suppose I could see it in the crafting and antiquing industries, but not really in the construction and home renovation industries. Although, I could be wrong....

construction-workers-1_640x345_acf_cropped1.jpg
 
Are you saying that homosexuals only go into the antique and crafting trades......when are you going to be tolerant of people's choices and all that other SJW stuff?! :biggrin2:

It's just that it's so rare I see a poofter 20 feet up on a house in the hot sun wearing his tool belt and high heels, pounding nails into a new roof. After all, with all those wooden splinters from the decking, he's bound to pick up a run in his nylons...

Much safer strolling the aisles at the craft store looking for macrame wool or in an antique boutique searching for the perfect soap dish for the powder room upstairs...
 
They can't do it in high heels silly. Rules say safety shoes.

and if you truly knew the pain and suffering of nylons, you wouldn't joke. The struggle with them damn things is real I tell Ya
 
HAH! Google says they can, and the SJW faction makes sure dangerous, predominantly heterosexual jobs are accessible to all! So Fuck you! :biggrin2:

Wholesale-inport-china-goods-high-heel-steel.jpg_350x350.jpg


Well I'll be damned. Who knew?



Well besides google of course. That fucker knows everything.
 
Well I'll be damned. Who knew?

Well besides google of course. That fucker knows everything.

...and me! Don't forget me! I know everything too! Just ask me! No ego. I'm just really REALLY imtelligemint! and edjumacated! Highly edjumacated! I went to 'science school' just like Prim0!
 
Straight couples have just as right to marry as gay couples. There is no excuse for refusing the gay couple a cake solely because of their sexual orientation. Shame on you baker. This is not free speech; this is discrimination.

Any arguments surrounding religion is nothing more than just utilizing your own religion as a convenient weapon to oppress LGBT people.
 
Straight couples have just as right to marry as gay couples. There is no excuse for refusing the gay couple a cake solely because of their sexual orientation. Shame on you baker. This is not free speech; this is discrimination.

Any arguments surrounding religion is nothing more than just utilizing your own religion as a convenient weapon to oppress LGBT people.

Did you not read what the supreme court said?.

Supreme Court rules for Colorado baker in same-sex wedding cake case - CNNPolitics
 
Nope. Religion is actually protected by the US constitution whereas sexual preference isn't mentioned that I'm aware of. I actually agree that anyone should be able to get married. Hell, the government shouldn't have anything at all to do with marriage. The simple rule should be that anyone can get married to anyone or more people as long as all involved are consenting and of age.

Now....just because someone can get married, it doesn't give them the right to demand participation by anyone else. Do you think a Jewish couple should be able to force an imam to marry them in a mosque under Jewish wedding rights? Should atheists be forced to follow the marriage rites of the Catholic church? Hopefully you can see that these things would be idiotic. So how do you think it's okay to FORCE someone to produce a custom item for a wedding of any kind?

Just because the LGBT couple or community have had their rights infringed in the past, it does not give them carte blanc to have everyone do their bidding for anything they want. The rules still apply to all, and should do so equally. You want a custom cake, find someone willing to make it for you.....there are plenty of bakers out there to do it. The one you want has religious objections to the cake you want, tough, they have constitutional protection as well. Perhaps you haven't noticed but people have been mistreated for their religious beliefs just as the LGBT community has been mistreated for their lifestyle choices. Go and ask the Muslim baker to make the custom gay wedding cake and see how that works out. Hell, see how far you can push it.....tell them they have to put Allah on the cake as well.

It's the same thing with the reparations thread. Just because some people have treated some other people wrongly in the past, that doesn't mean you punish everyone and get to do whatever you want.

I disagree.

Denying a gay couple a cake because of their sexual orientation is oppression. Asking a religious baker to bake a cake for a gay couple is not oppression. There's a fundamental difference between the way the two works.

I understand what you're saying, but you're making two assumptions here, 1) that being homophobic is a fundamental part of being religious (it's not), and 2) if he does bake a cake for an LGBT couple then that means he is being marginalized relative to a non-religious person.

1) Religion is not innately homophobic or transphobic. Read some of the early bible entries. Gays and transgenders are respected as much as heterosexuals and cis-genders. Only when heterosexist people became in power did they start to twist the bible around to suit their needs - by using it as an avenue to spread their violently queerphobic views and ideologies. Have you met athiests who disliked queer people? I'm sure you have. Homophobia/transphobia is not religious in nature, but rather, one can use religion as nothing more than a weapon to spread their hateful beliefs. Just like the Ugandan president was able to use his "fear of the poo-poo" as a weapon to criminalize homosexuality.

2) Let's say that the religious baker is forced to bake a cake for the LGBT couple. Ok. He now baked a cake along with the other non-religious bakers. So what? He's not being oppressed in any way. If he has an ardent hatred towards gay people then that's his problem - he ought to LEARN how to respect them as human beings then he will recognize that baking a cake for an LGBT couple is just as important as baking one for a heterosexual couple. On the flip side the gay couple - because of their own sexual orientation they were denied the privilege of having a cake. That they were treated differently from a heterosexual couple because of their own sexual orientation. I think that situation is far worse because it means their sexual orientation is being invalidated.

You could argue "but find another baker" but you're missing the whole point. A heterosexual couple wouldn't need to find a baker that is respectful of heterosexual couples. A homosexual couple WOULD need to find a baker that is respectful of homosexual couples. See the difference in privilege here?
 
I can somewhat see your side. Would it kill the baker just to go ahead and bake the damned cake...probably not. But we do have protections for things in this country. Religion is one of them. I am not religious so I cannot say what it really means to this baker to be forced to bake a cake that goes against his understanding of Christianity. At the same time, I believe very much in individual liberty. I don't think anyone should be forced to do most things by the government. I think a business should be able to decide to serve one customer and not the next for whatever reason they have. It is their business and they should run it the way they wish. Don't want to serve blacks....or whites.....or men.....or women.....so be it. Other people then have the freedom to choose to use that business or not. You cannot force people to be all inclusive just because you feel it is right. Each person has the right to be an asshole....that's freedom. The side that people seem to ignore is that Freedom comes with consequences. There will be assholes who are rude and whatnot. And those assholes will eventually be shunned until they only have themselves and like-minded assholes to live with. Let the racist bar go out of business because there aren't enough like-minded people out there to keep the business in profits. Let the homophobic baker deny some people his products until only like-minded people can keep him afloat. Let the Muslim cab company deny people rides if they have dogs or alcohol. Let the gay clothing designer deny to work for right-wing politicians.

There's a good meme about this....




The big difference between us is that I think people have the right to be assholes. You seem to want to force people to be "good" the way you see it.

Should a homosexual artist be forced to make a religious art piece that reinforces that marriage should be between one man and one woman?....or should they be able to say "find some other artist"?

The issue is that not all of the situations that you described are equal. Homosexuals are a marginalized group of people. Heterosexuals, Christian people, are not. Saying that "I refuse to serve cake to gay couples" is different from saying "I refuse to make a piece of art that reinforces the idea that marriage should be between a man and a woman."

When you say "I refuse to serve cake to gay people" then what you are saying is you think the needs of heterosexuals should prioritize the needs of homosexuals. That you think gay people are lesser human beings than straight people. That's heterosexism by the book.

When you say "I refuse to make a piece of art that reinforces the fact that marriage should be between a man and a woman" then what you are saying is you want to break the hetero-normality and would like to incorporate homosexuals into our society that are predominantly run by heterosexuals. That you believe same sex love should be respected as much as opposite sex love.

Two TOTALLY different things.

I'll be fine, for instance, if in a black neighbourhood a 7/11 store refused to serve white police officers - because there's a logical reason for that - white police officers have systemically been oppressing black people even until now, and they do so just to be safe. However, if a Christian 7/11 store refused to serve homosexuals then that's oppression - because they are asserting their heterosexist beliefs onto their customers; and no, gay people are NOT a threat to Christian people.

It all depends on what the intention is, and why they are doing it.
 
I'll be fine, for instance, if in a black neighbourhood a 7/11 store refused to serve white police officers - because there's a logical reason for that - white police officers have systemically been oppressing black people even until now, and they do so just to be safe. However, if a Christian 7/11 store refused to serve homosexuals then that's oppression - because they are asserting their heterosexist beliefs onto their customers; and no, gay people are NOT a threat to Christian people.

It all depends on what the intention is, and why they are doing it.

This is where you lose me. I agree everyone should be treated equal but I refuse to give anyone or any group special rights over another.
 
If I was a black person owning a 7/11 store I wouldn't deny service from a white police officer. But I would totally accept another black person doing the same because systemic racism is alive and well.
 
No....right is right and wrong is wrong.

Put it this way. If customer A went to Business B and was denied service........is it racism, sexism, etc?


The baker in the story didn't deny them service......he denied making them a custom cake. He would have sold them anything he had prepared....but didn't want to "participate" in the ceremony by making something custom. There is where I think some confusion comes in for people. Had the baker said, "nope, nothing for you because you are gay" is different than "I'm sorry, but I can't make a wedding cake that depicts two homosexuals getting married".


You keep going back to Systemic this or that.....There are issues with the system....it's supposed to allow each and every one of us to have the same exact rights. But for decades the system has been abused by one group or another. It has been the whites, the rich, etc. and now it is being used by the left, people of color, the LGBTQ community and others. The point should be that everyone has the same rights, not that some people need to pay for what other people of that community did in the past.

The baker has rights, the couple has rights. One does not trump the other the way you are trying to put it. Would you force a Muslim baker to bake the gay wedding cake? Different religion but same stance on gay marriage. Do they get a pass or can you at least be consistent with this example?....or have Muslims been oppressed in this country and therefore can get out of the situation without punishment?

To me, hating gays and refusing to bake a cake for the sole reason that it depicts two homosexuals showing intimacy is the same thing. If you truly do not hate gays then you will be okay with baking such a cake like that.

Yes, the system has been abused by white rich upper class heterosexual people and you know what - it STILL is. You can't rid racism, ablism, sexism, heterosexism, and transphobia. For instance, America still mass murder people of colour from the middle east, still exploit black and PoC slaves from Asian and African countries, rape is still systemic, homosexuals, transgenders, queer people, disabled people, autistic people, etc. are still abused and murdered at disproportionate rates compared to cis-heterosexual able bodied people. LGBTQ people are not abusing the system when all they want from the system is to address important issues like abuse, discrimination, or poverty, which, you know what, is STILL going on.

No I will not accept a Muslim individual to discriminate against gay people just as much as I wouldn't allow a non-Muslim individual, for the simple reason that religion, yes including Islam, is not intrinsically homophobic. Homophobia is systemic, and I'm sure you'll find equal amount of homophobes, queerphobes, and transphobes in religious AND athiest communities alike.

The baker has rights... to discriminate against gays? Bullshit. Nobody has any right to hate speech. Hate speech and expression are two different things.
 
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