Judge's sex-assault comments spark rally

[KathrynBardot]

Now I thought of another example, but kind of apropos:

You book a flight to Miami. You get on the plane, get settled in your seat, and the flight is now over kentucky. You decide, hey, I don't want to go to miami, land and let me off...kind of too late for that isn't it?

My point is: before you even get on the plane (or leave the bar with a stranger) you'd better be damned sure you know what you're doing and it is what you want to be doing.

It doesn't work that way - consent can be withdrawn at any point before or during. For example, I took a guy home from a bar a few years back and things were going well until he kept trying for greek. I said no, he persisted, and I told him to get out of my bed. At that point, I had withdrawn consent, and if he had continued, it would have been rape. Unlike an airplane, I can get off the ride whenever I want to. (See: )

You seem to be incredibly fixated on the idea that "rape-rape"* is a stranger pulling a girl into a dark alley. Might want to bone up on your information - according to RAINN.org, 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.

*See: Whoopi Goldberg on Roman Polanski; the notion that some rapes are "worse" or more serious than others; the notion that in order for rape to have really occurred, the victim must have put up a fight and/or incurred injury during the attack.

 

[SmkngPopeye]

It doesn't work that way - consent can be withdrawn at any point before or during. For example, I took a guy home from a bar a few years back and things were going well until he kept trying for greek. I said no, he persisted, and I told him to get out of my bed. At that point, I had withdrawn consent, and if he had continued, it would have been rape. Unlike an airplane, I can get off the ride whenever I want to. (See: )

You seem to be incredibly fixated on the idea that "rape-rape"* is a stranger pulling a girl into a dark alley. Might want to bone up on your information - according to RAINN.org, 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.

*See: Whoopi Goldberg on Roman Polanski; the notion that some rapes are "worse" or more serious than others; the notion that in order for rape to have really occurred, the victim must have put up a fight and/or incurred injury during the attack.

Tell them girl .

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

It doesn't work that way - consent can be withdrawn at any point before or during. For example, I took a guy home from a bar a few years back and things were going well until he kept trying for greek. I said no, he persisted, and I told him to get out of my bed. At that point, I had withdrawn consent, and if he had continued, it would have been rape. Unlike an airplane, I can get off the ride whenever I want to. (See: )

Conversely some would say that by taking a stranger home after you and he had been drinking you were putting yourself in a situation of risk. With that it could be said that a level of responsibility should be assumed if a sexual assault occurred.

 

[canuckhooker]

Conversely some would say that by taking a stranger home after you and he had been drinking you were putting yourself in a situation of risk. With that it could be said that a level of responsibility should be assumed if a sexual assault occurred.

Conversely if someone drinks and then goes home with someone, knowing full well that they cannot control their actions when they have been drinking, are they not also putting themselves at risk of doing something that will get them charged with sexual assault? Whose responsibility holds trump?

Sexual assault, or any assault for that matter, is wrong. No means no. We all have the right to change our mind, and put a stop to whatever is going on, regardless of how much we have had to drink, how we are dressed, or just how damn sexy we are.

 

[a 1 player]

We all have the right to change our mind, and put a stop to whatever is going on, regardless of how much we have had to drink, how we are dressed, or just how damn sexy we are.

Yeah, even when you are really, really, ridiculously good looking like me!:shock:

 

[tboy]

It doesn't work that way - consent can be withdrawn at any point before or during. For example, I took a guy home from a bar a few years back and things were going well until he kept trying for greek. I said no, he persisted, and I told him to get out of my bed. At that point, I had withdrawn consent, and if he had continued, it would have been rape. Unlike an airplane, I can get off the ride whenever I want to. (See: )

You seem to be incredibly fixated on the idea that "rape-rape"* is a stranger pulling a girl into a dark alley. Might want to bone up on your information - according to RAINN.org, 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.

*See: Whoopi Goldberg on Roman Polanski; the notion that some rapes are "worse" or more serious than others; the notion that in order for rape to have really occurred, the victim must have put up a fight and/or incurred injury during the attack.

And like all those protesting, you ignore my point which is NOT that a woman cannot change her mind at any point, but before even GETTING to that point she should make damn well sure she knows what risks she's taking by her actions and you proved my point with your "picking up the guy and he wanted to do greek" example. Maybe you should have gotten to know him first before inviting him into your bed? Maybe it's partially YOUR fault for picking up someone in a bar?

Picking up a total stranger in a bar is like playing russian roulette: you can't only blame the gun when it puts the bullet in your head.

No means no, sure. What does no-yes-no-yes-no-yes mean?

As for 2/3rds of rapes being committed by someone she knows and rape rape is someone pulling her into an alley. Once again, you ignore the difference between that, and picking up a stranger in a bar.

Not once did I say it was sexual assault or rape. I am plainly stating that the victim holds some sort of responsibility for putting herself into a high risk situation in the case we're discussing IN THIS THREAD.

Conversely if someone drinks and then goes home with someone, knowing full well that they cannot control their actions when they have been drinking, are they not also putting themselves at risk of doing something that will get them charged with sexual assault? Whose responsibility holds trump?

Sexual assault, or any assault for that matter, is wrong. No means no. We all have the right to change our mind, and put a stop to whatever is going on, regardless of how much we have had to drink, how we are dressed, or just how damn sexy we are

Once again, like those protesters, you totally ignore my point.

The judge, and myself never said "it was never sexual assault" and in fact, the guy WAS found guilty of it.

"Whose responsibility holds trump": The point you miss is: HE WAS CHARGED, CONVICTED AND IS BEING PUNISHED FOR THAT......and in fact, you are supporting my position that BOTH parties hold some responsibility for putting themselves into that situation.

From the sounds of it, people are sounding like women are incapable of making smart decisions. That if she gets herself into trouble, it is everyone else's fault but OH NO not her own.....Sorry, I have much more faith in women than that. I think they a) are smart enough to know what is safe and what isn't and b) are no different than men when it comes to taking responsibility for their actions. They are not simpletons that have to be protected like children......

I also disagree with the laws that make bar owners responsible for people leaving their bar drunk. That too is deflecting responsibility. If the woman in the OP had a decent lawyer I bet she could sue the bar owner(s) for serving her so much to drink that her judgement was impaired.

Here's a scenario for y'all:
A guy and a girl are in a bar. He asks her to dance. They're dancing together and she grabs his ass and grinds into him. He reaches around and grabs her ass and pulls her into him. She hauls off and smacks him.

What's the charge and who gets charged?

 

[KathrynBardot]

And like all those protesting, you ignore my point which is NOT that a woman cannot change her mind at any point, but before even GETTING to that point she should make damn well sure she knows what risks she's taking by her actions and you proved my point with your "picking up the guy and he wanted to do greek" example. Maybe you should have gotten to know him first before inviting him into your bed? Maybe it's partially YOUR fault for picking up someone in a bar?

Picking up a total stranger in a bar is like playing russian roulette: you can't only blame the gun when it puts the bullet in your head.

But it's okay (and socially accepted/encouraged) for a guy to pick up in a bar?

You're assuming that this was a complete stranger, and that I had taken absolutely no precautions for my safety. You're wrong on both counts.
And the fact is, even if I had known this guy for weeks and he was an absolute upstanding model of normative behaviour, the risk is still there.

 

[tboy]

But it's okay (and socially accepted/encouraged) for a guy to pick up in a bar?

You're assuming that this was a complete stranger, and that I had taken absolutely no precautions for my safety. You're wrong on both counts.
And the fact is, even if I had known this guy for weeks and he was an absolute upstanding model of normative behaviour, the risk is still there.

Once again, you're ignoring my point and adding your own spin on the example. At NO time did I say "socially acceptible" nor did I say "encouraged". It is a dangerous situation for both parties, more so for the woman, but BOTH parties hold some degree of responsibility for putting themselves into a risky situation.

I assumed he was a stranger because you specifically said "A guy". You didn't say, I took a friend home, you didn't say, I brought someone I knew home.... you said "A guy".

Now answer my question please:
Who gets charged with what crime?

OH and please, stick to the discussion at hand and quit trying to change the situation into "someone she knew". The woman in this situation did NOT know the person, she picked him up in a bar. THAT is the issue we're discussing NOT a situation where she knows/knew the person.

 

[oagre]

Oh man, I stopped watching when someone stated "...to think that someone deserved to be sexually assaulted"....in a typically female response they added their own spin to the ruling. At no time did the judge or ANYONE say "she deserved" anything.....

Shit, maybe we need laws like "incite to riot" whereby a woman dressed too provacatively gets charged?

Oh man I'd like to obtain the transcripts from the case......for all we know all the guy did was kiss her or grab her ass, because afterall, that's sexual assault.....

IIRC, the judge was a Superior Court judge and therefore, it would almost certainly have been a serious case of physical penetration and forced intercourse. The ass-grabbers are dealt with in magistrates' court.

 

[peace]

No means NO! NO IF...NO BUT..NO IS NO. If a person changes his or her min, he or she will tell you otherwise. In the meantime, respect the word, NO.

HUGS

 

[peace]

min...meant mind.

 

[Cycleguy007]

No means NO! NO IF...NO BUT..NO IS NO. If a person changes his or her min, he or she will tell you otherwise. In the meantime, respect the word, NO.

HUGS

Exactly!

https://www.hubgfe.com/community/sh...ts-spark-rally&p=136397&viewfull=1#post136397

 

[tboy]

No means NO! NO IF...NO BUT..NO IS NO. If a person changes his or her min, he or she will tell you otherwise. In the meantime, respect the word, NO.

HUGS

I guess this is the response you get when you let anyone on the boards even those who are missing this vital part of life:

Are you all dense or something? The fricken guy was charged, found guilty and punishment meted out. At NO time did anyone anywhere at any time ever say that NO means anything BUT no....

Hello? Is this thing on?

 

[tboy]

Exactly!

https://www.hubgfe.com/community/sh...ts-spark-rally&p=136397&viewfull=1#post136397

Since women bear no responsibility for their actions which put their lives and or sexual well being in danger, let me ask you:

If one of your daughters steals a car and gets into a wreck, are you going to blame the guy who left the keys in the car?

 

[DocOdd]

Since women bear no responsibility for their actions which put their lives and or sexual well being in danger, let me ask you:

If one of your daughters steals a car and gets into a wreck, are you going to blame the guy who left the keys in the car?

Shouldn't have given away what was apparently the only clue you have, since you are again cluelessly bringing up analogies which are so different from the original case one doesn't even know where to begin.

Perhaps parody with an even sillier analogy? So, if there's a lunar eclipse, would you have white wine with dinner? No, I failed, that probably has more to do with the original case than your analogy.

 

[tboy]

^^^^ yet another who has nothing to contribute to the discussion except admit he's too stupid to know where to begin.....why don't you crawl back under the rock you came out from and let the adults talk....tyvm....

 

[scotty]

Obviously an emotionally charged issue as people seem to be only hearing part of what is said.

Tboy I think you may be beating your head against a wall here, and maybe the analogies are just allowing people too much freedom to interpret the argument from their own perspective.

Lets summarize..lol
we all agree that no means no and that consent can be withdrawn at any time.
We all agree that the person in question was convicted and sentenced.
No one thinks he shouldnt have been convicted based on our limited access to the facts.

now IMHO
Anytime you hook up with a stranger or even someone not such a stranger, (sps and customers, barflys, coworker at the office party) there is an element of risk involved for both parties.From physical risk to awkward morning after/work situations to possible angry spouces or job loss.

The point is that alcohol clouds ones judgement, and certain choices increase risk. If I leave the bar with a woman and both or either of us is drunk, our judgement is impared.

IF Im flashing a big roll of cash, im attracting attention, maybe intentionally. If things go wrong and I get confronted by theives in a dark alley on my way to the car, I must accept some responcibility for creating this situation. There are many points at which I could have taken steps to avoid this outcome and I made the wrong choices.(Sorry im kinda doing the analogy thing and I appreciate that loosing cash is different in scope and nature to sexual assault)

I dont blame the victim. She is just that, a victim. However certain choices add to ones risk not dimish it. Surely we can agree that people should do what they can to reduce risk, and if not, then they should atleast acknowledge that in certain instances there choices played a role in the outcome.

Being drunk, or scantily clad, or even leaving a bar with someone, doesnt give another the right to take advantage, but some behaviours increase risk. Of course we all take chances, its impossible to tell which time it will catch us up. Still No means no and when a crime is committed, punishment is appropriate.

If I engage in risky behaviour....oh lets say sky diving...or better yet walking around with lots of cash...sooner or later/or maybe never, i might have a problem. I must deem the risk minimal to act the way I do, if it turns out I was wrong then the criminal I met should be arrested and go to jail after he robs me, but dont I have some responcibilty for putting myself in that position ??? When im drinking im pretty sure I shouldnt get behind the wheel either.

I also seem to remember reading that most sexual assaults are not committed by strangers but are more often"date rapes" but that only 1 in 10 assaults get reported.


OK its late and that was probably too long a post.....
Feel free to flame away, I still have Maurices kevlar from the sunshine girl thread

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

Conversely if someone drinks and then goes home with someone, knowing full well that they cannot control their actions when they have been drinking, are they not also putting themselves at risk of doing something that will get them charged with sexual assault? Whose responsibility holds trump?

Sexual assault, or any assault for that matter, is wrong. No means no. We all have the right to change our mind, and put a stop to whatever is going on, regardless of how much we have had to drink, how we are dressed, or just how damn sexy we are.

So let me ask you this then. If you were a woman would you go to a bar get drunk and leave with a man that you had just recently met?

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

But it's okay (and socially accepted/encouraged) for a guy to pick up in a bar?

Men don't generally have to be worried about being over powered and sexually assaulted by a woman though do they.

You're assuming that this was a complete stranger, and that I had taken absolutely no precautions for my safety. You're wrong on both counts.

You didn't sat that in your first post.

And the fact is, even if I had known this guy for weeks and he was an absolute upstanding model of normative behaviour, the risk is still there.

Yes the risk is still there but not nearly as high is it. Character assessment takes time and the more time spent with somebody the less chance there is of something unforeseen happening.

 

[Cycleguy007]

Since women bear no responsibility for their actions which put their lives and or sexual well being in danger, let me ask you:

If one of your daughters steals a car and gets into a wreck, are you going to blame the guy who left the keys in the car?

Huh?