Judge's sex-assault comments spark rally

[Jesus Quintana]

Very few of us are completely safe from harm but it is our responsibility to minimize the risk.
If I were to walk through a notoriously dangerous neighborhood wearing a $5000 suit, gold rings and a huge gold chain around my neck it would behoove me to be very wary of ANYONE. I would be a walking target. (That may not actually be a great example as then I'd look like a mafia hit man...)
The same unfortunately would be true of a scantily clad woman hitchhiking in the middle of the night. Hopefully the lion's share of us here would give her a ride home and give her an earful about how dangerous it is but there may be some idiot who may look at her and just think "Oh ya, she's asking for it" and give "it" to her.

 

[canuckhooker]

Ok.. this argument has us all on the slippery slope. I do believe people should take responsibility for their actions, but this is not the case in what the judge said, nor in the lenient sentence.

If that is the case, then this clown got a lighter sentence because the lady should bear some responsibility for what happened? That is not how it works. How is going more lenient on the attacker making her take some responsibility? It is basically saying that rape is OK, if you think she was asking for it.

To use Tboy's example of the beating, again the judge was wrong. You may have been stupid to have been running where you were, but does that give these guys the right to assault you? Again, NO! An assault is an assault whether it happens after midnight, in a dark alley, in a rough part of town, or whether it occurs in bright daylight in a posh neighbourhood in front of a church. The guilty parties should be punished equally. To do otherwise would give these thugs license to beat up random people who wander on to their "turf". That is not how our justice system is supposed to work. The judge could have admonished you for being foolish and taking a risk, but how does giving them a relative slap on the wrist make you more responsible? It doesn't, it is a non sequitur argument.

The problem in the original case was not only the judge's comments, but that he also gave a very lenient sentence. If it was an assault, then it should be punished as such. He could admonish the woman for being less than prudent in her behaviour, but giving the guy a lenient sentence is only sending the message that rape in some cases isn't that bad.

 

[tboy]

You make some good points Canuck but sorry, I disagree. We don't know what the convicted guy actually did so we cannot determine whether his sentence was lenient or not. There was a suggestion that due to the level of the judge, that penetration had to have occurred but until I read that in the transcripts, I'm not buying it.

See, he could have just kissed her (which was stated in one article) so if that's all he did, does he deserve jail time? No. I think the sentence is just then. Just like with common assault, we have various degrees and seriousness so should it be with sexual assaults as well.

I don't think making statements outlining how what someone did (victim) as being stupid, or dumb, or inappropriate won't lead to allowing criminals to get off by saying "they were defending their turf", but more so pointing out and putting in the record how certain actions helped create certain results.

Further to that: do you think that a) if she was dressed in a turtleneck she would have garnered the perp's attention? b) if she wasn't drunk would she have acted how she did? we don't know exactly what was done to create the "air of sexuality" but I can hazard a guess.....

Sorry, once again, an assault is NOT just an assault. There are various degrees of it. For eg: if you challenge someone to a fight, and lose, that isn't the same as walking down the street and getting jumped. If someone is drunk and picks a fight with a bouncer that is one thing, and that in and of itself is reason to have differing penalties for different types of assaults.

Like I've said: you don't jump into the bear cage at the zoo then complain because the bear bit you. If you don't want to get bit, stay the fuck outta the cage.

As for my example: no, it doesn't give them the right to assault me, which is why they were tried and convicted. As for your "rough part of town" example. Well, if you're in a rough part of town and walk up to some street toughs standing on the corner and use the N word on them, that's totally 100% different than simply walking along minding your own business.

Just one more thing I'd like to add then I'm done with this thread:

For all we know this guy who was convicted of sexual assault was simply "making his move". Now many will scoff at this but think of it: If you meet a girl in a bar, chat her up, she's all flirty and gregarious with you.....leaning in close, touching your arm dancing close etc and you think "wow, I'm getting somewhere" and lean in and kiss her, YOU'RE GUILTY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND CAN BE CHARGED AS SUCH. Think about that the next time you're on a date. The only way you cannot be charged is if she comes out and openly states: it is ok for you to kiss me now (least according to some of the statements here and in the media). Like my example: a chick grabs your ass on the dance floor, you take that as "implied consent" and grab her ass back....YOU CAN BE FUCKED SIX WAYS FROM SUNDAY!!!!

 

[Trump]

I agree the laws seem biased towards men. The police have no choice but to press charges when called and it really seems we are guilty til proven innocent!!

 

[DocOdd]

I agree the laws seem biased towards men.

I wouldn't say that they're biased toward men. Most rapes are never prosecuted, and only a miniscule fraction ever lead to conviction, so the system seems to be biased in favor of rapists. This is surely not of any benefit to men who aren't rapists, so I don't see that the system has any bias in favor of men.

Tboy, it continues to be incredibly disgusting how you invent fantasy scenarios where nothing serious happened and women over-reacted in order to justify saying obnoxious things about a case you know nothing about that has nothing in common with your fantasy scenarios. One of the things that makes it so obnoxious is that you obviously somehow think that your fantasy scenarios are remotely likely or plausible, which is pretty offensive to people who have been sexually assaulted or who know people who have and who have similarly had their own experienced trivialized by clueless assholes.

Most rapes are commited by serial rapists. Serial rapists rape when they think they can get away with it. Assholes like you who say that maybe it wasn't so serious, maybe not rape at all, if the victim was doing something wrong, make it easier for serial rapists to get away with it, and so make rapes more likely. I hope you feel good about yourself, tboy.

 

[GenevieveLajoie]

Most rapes are commited by serial rapists.

While I agree with the gist of your post, I have to correct you on this. Most rapes are NOT commited by serial rapists.

I don't have the Canadian stats on hand right now, but according to the US Department of Justice:

"About 9 out of 10 rape/sexual assault victimizations involved a single offender, ac- cording to victims' reports (figure 4). Three out of four rape/sexual assault victimizations involved offenders (both single- and multiple-offender incidents) with whom the victim had a prior relationship as a family member, intimate, or acquaintance."

Also worthy of note is the fact that "nearly 6 out of 10 rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or at the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor (figure 3). More than half of rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occurred within 1 mile of their home or at their home."
See report (pdf).

From memory, the stats are similar for the Canadian case. It should be fairly easy to find documentation on the Statistic Canada website for those who are so incline (of course, some may prefer to stick to their fantasy world in which women are asking for it by dressing too sexy and men are animals who simply can't control themselve when they see a pair of tits or a short skirt and therefore shouldn't be blamed for their inability to control themselve from raping women).

Also worthy of a read given the amount of myths and false information circulating in this thread and in society in general regarding rape: Rape Culture 101 (some links in the article aren't working anymore). Particularly relevant to the present discussion:

"Rape culture is the objectification of women, which is part of a dehumanizing process that renders consent irrelevant. Rape culture is treating women's bodies like public property. Rape culture is street harassment and groping on public transportation and equating raped women's bodies to a man walking around with valuables hanging out of his pockets. Rape culture is most men being so far removed from the threat of rape that invoking property theft is evidently the closest thing many of them can imagine to being forcibly subjected to a sexual assault."

 

[KathrynBardot]

Gen's turning me on

 

[peace]

Sorry Maurice

Sorry Maurice

Sorry for the late reply....ok my answer to your question:

So you would never blame yourself in any way if you were assaulted?
Lets take my previous example shall we. You would take a stroll in Harlem on a warm summer night and If you got mugged you would say you were totally blameless for that assault. Is that correct?

Please answer the question directly and try not to deflect the way some have in this thread.


My answer: No I would not blame myself for being assaulted. I know t boy think I am being naive but I just think we need to change our way of thinking. We have to end this disgusting cycle of constantly blaming the victims for causing all these attacks toward them.

According to T boy:
Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a society where it was safe to do whatever we want, when we want with whomever we want

YES IT WOUL DBE VERYYYYYY NICE. :great:

but that is utopia and mother nature prevents that from ever occuring. In nature, there are predators and there are prey. There is no escaping that. The trick is to fly under the radar and not be preyed upon by not drawing unwanted attention to yourself and taking some very basic self-preservation precautions.

....I BETTER LOCK MYSELF IN MY HOUSE TO AVOId OF BEING PREYED. :aww:
i THINK I NEED SOME LOVING HUGS!

PS. T BOY...I still think it wasnt your fault or responsibility.

 

[tboy]

Doc? Once again you crawl out from under your rock to add nothing at all relevant to the discussion at hand. As for your statements: why not back them up with data? There's this thing called the interweb where you can find all kinds of data....

Gen saved me the trouble of searching out the data and Gen, you're correct, those stats are very similar to Canada's. I remember reading about it not long ago....(I think it was posted last year when those ladies picked up the guys at the NYE party in toronto and went back to their hotel with them. Their faces were posted all over the news until they turned themselves in).

As for the comparison to "valuables hanging out of our pockets" I don't think we mean to objectify women with this analogy, it's just that we really have to other basis for a comparable crime against us. Sure, we could say that we could file a sexual assault case against a woman who grabbed our ass on the dance floor, but I don't know of any guy who would really object to that.

Interesting read, that rape culture 101, one thing I'd like to address from it:

"Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression." Ummm correct me if I'm wrong, but if men weren't sexually agressive then who would be? Certainly not women. At least if they were they'd only be aggressive to 1% of the male population which would mean 99% of the population would never have a date, never marry, and never have any kids.

I won't copy and paste her entire paragraph on "what to wear, where to walk, whom to trust". Sorry, that's just common sense. It has nothing to do with "rape culture", it has everything to do with living in a dangerous society. Unless we chemcially castrate all men and women at the age of 14, and give everyone drugs like "equilibrium" violent crimes will be with us until this big blue marble self destructs and mankind becomes extinct.

BTW: who is this person writing this? What are her credentials other than the writing of this?

A LOT of what she writes in there doesn't account for things like: false reporting of rape, misidentification of rapists, etc etc etc. Now I'm not saying everything there is unfounded, most of it is, but to say just because some of those things happen doesn't make our society a rape "culture", just like because some people murder doesn't make our society "Murder culture". Or if it does, then we're also a "speeding culture", a "drunk driving culture", an "assault culture" etc. There are millions of men (nay, BILLIONS of men) who would never assault a woman, never force himself on her, never rape her in any way shape or form.

Funny though, when those girls accused the cabby of sexually assaulting them and he was detained/cuffed by the police until he showed them the hidden camera video footage of them threatening him I didn't hear one peep out of any women's rights group. I should think that if anyone would be up in arms about this it would be them. I mean, they are a prime example of how fucked up things can become and only contribute to the "non-believing" of the police....

 

[tboy]

Sorry for the late reply....ok my answer to your question:

So you would never blame yourself in any way if you were assaulted?
Lets take my previous example shall we. You would take a stroll in Harlem on a warm summer night and If you got mugged you would say you were totally blameless for that assault. Is that correct?

Please answer the question directly and try not to deflect the way some have in this thread.


My answer: No I would not blame myself for being assaulted. I know t boy think I am being naive but I just think we need to change our way of thinking. We have to end this disgusting cycle of constantly blaming the victims for causing all these attacks toward them.

According to T boy:
Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a society where it was safe to do whatever we want, when we want with whomever we want

YES IT WOUL DBE VERYYYYYY NICE. :great:

but that is utopia and mother nature prevents that from ever occuring. In nature, there are predators and there are prey. There is no escaping that. The trick is to fly under the radar and not be preyed upon by not drawing unwanted attention to yourself and taking some very basic self-preservation precautions.

....I BETTER LOCK MYSELF IN MY HOUSE TO AVOId OF BEING PREYED. :aww:
i THINK I NEED SOME LOVING HUGS!

PS. T BOY...I still think it wasnt your fault or responsibility.

I swear, this is blissful in disguise...you just don't get it.....WE ARE NOT BLAMING THE VICTIM, WE ARE ASSIGNING SOME I REPEAT SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITY WHERE IT LIES.

Let me ask you this:

If you jumped into the bear's cage at the zoo would you blame the bears for biting you?

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

My answer: No I would not blame myself for being assaulted. I know t boy think I am being naive but I just think we need to change our way of thinking. We have to end this disgusting cycle of constantly blaming the victims for causing all these attacks toward them.

Surely you jest. Either that or you are the type of individual who never takes responsibility for his actions.

Interesting way to go through life.

 

[peace]

t-boy....believe me, I am not blissful at all. I hate to say this as the implication sounds like it is a terrible thing to be associated with this person named blissful. sO AGAIN, I am not BLISSFUL and I am sure that she is a wonderful human being.

secondly, no I wouldnt jump into a bear's cage but I would if there were beautiful asian women and no bears at all. By the way, this is a terrible analogy.

Maurice...."Either that or you are the type of individual who never takes responsibility for his actions.Interesting way to go through life."

.......You have to be kidding me and I still stand by how I feel about this issue. meanwhile I have many responsibilities to be fulfilled as well as making sure my actions are respectful of people's feelings and boundaries. Wish you a beautiful day!
ps. Put that GUN away. uch:

 

[DocOdd]

While I agree with the gist of your post, I have to correct you on this. Most rapes are NOT commited by serial rapists.

I suppose I used misleading terminology; "serial rapist" sounds like "serial killer," and of course serial killers almost always kill strangers, but I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant someone who commits many rapes over time. They do commonly target people that they know, as your statistics indicate (perhaps because, as I said, they rape when they can get away with it, and unlike murder, rape is a crime where targeting people you know often makes it easier rather than harder to avoid getting caught).

 

[tboy]

^^^^^ you're still wrong, Gen plainly pointed out correctly that 9 out of 10 rapes are commited by single offenders....NOT someone who commits many rapes over time.......

So dance all you want, you're still completely wrong.......

 

[DocOdd]

^^^^^ you're still wrong, Gen plainly pointed out correctly that 9 out of 10 rapes are commited by single offenders....NOT someone who commits many rapes over time.......

So dance all you want, you're still completely wrong.......

Single offender = one person committed the rape, as opposed to a gang rape. It doesn't mean this person has only committed one rape. As usual, you are the one that is completely wrong.

 

[tboy]

Single offender = one person committed the rape, as opposed to a gang rape. It doesn't mean this person has only committed one rape. As usual, you are the one that is completely wrong.

LOL you're such a homer....a single offender is someone who commits the crime once......aka a single offence.....as opposed to a repeat offender....

the term you're looking for is LONE offender as in "lone gunman".......You hear on the news all the time that police are looking for a "lone suspect"......

 

[DocOdd]

LOL you're such a homer....a single offender is someone who commits the crime once......aka a single offence.....as opposed to a repeat offender....

the term you're looking for is LONE offender as in "lone gunman".......You hear on the news all the time that police are looking for a "lone suspect"......

Nope, this particular report distinguishes "single offender" and "multiple offender" rapes, that is rapes committed by one person and those committed by multiple people working together. Gen's quote already mentions "multiple offenders" as the contrast to "single offenders" (someone who commits more than one rape is a repeat or serial offender, not a multiple offender), and if you checked the report, it would have been even more obvious that that's what they're talking about. Of course, checking the report might have accidentally led to you learning something, and you seem to have a violent aversion to the truth, so I guess I'm not surprised you didn't.

 

[tboy]

Nope, this particular report distinguishes "single offender" and "multiple offender" rapes, that is rapes committed by one person and those committed by multiple people working together. Gen's quote already mentions "multiple offenders" as the contrast to "single offenders" (someone who commits more than one rape is a repeat or serial offender, not a multiple offender), and if you checked the report, it would have been even more obvious that that's what they're talking about. Of course, checking the report might have accidentally led to you learning something, and you seem to have a violent aversion to the truth, so I guess I'm not surprised you didn't.

what report? you haven't posted links to ANY report.....so, if you're going to play THAT game, if you checked THIS report, you'd see that they are referring to single offenders as those who only commit the crime once, and repeat offenders as those who commit the crime repeatedly.....so if you checked THIS report, you'd have learned something.......

 

[DocOdd]

what report? you haven't posted links to ANY report.....so, if you're going to play THAT game, if you checked THIS report, you'd see that they are referring to single offenders as those who only commit the crime once, and repeat offenders as those who commit the crime repeatedly.....so if you checked THIS report, you'd have learned something.......

Are you deliberately trying to look stupid? I am, of course, referring to the report that Gen linked to.

 

[GenevieveLajoie]

I suppose I used misleading terminology; "serial rapist" sounds like "serial killer," and of course serial killers almost always kill strangers, but I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant someone who commits many rapes over time. They do commonly target people that they know, as your statistics indicate (perhaps because, as I said, they rape when they can get away with it, and unlike murder, rape is a crime where targeting people you know often makes it easier rather than harder to avoid getting caught).

Ah yes. I did assume that you meant serial rapist as stranger serial rapist.

And indeed, studies about "undetected rapist" suggest that a significant number of men who rape are serial rapists. You can read a literature review here (pfd) or a fact sheet (pdf) summarizing the key points.