Judge's sex-assault comments spark rally

[tboy]

Obviously an emotionally charged issue as people seem to be only hearing part of what is said.

Tboy I think you may be beating your head against a wall here, and maybe the analogies are just allowing people too much freedom to interpret the argument from their own perspective.

....
Being drunk, or scantily clad, or even leaving a bar with someone, doesnt give another the right to take advantage, but some behaviours increase risk. Of course we all take chances, its impossible to tell which time it will catch us up. Still No means no and when a crime is committed, punishment is appropriate.

If I engage in risky behaviour....oh lets say sky diving...or better yet walking around with lots of cash...sooner or later/or maybe never, i might have a problem. I must deem the risk minimal to act the way I do, if it turns out I was wrong then the criminal I met should be arrested and go to jail after he robs me, but dont I have some responcibilty for putting myself in that position ??? When im drinking im pretty sure I shouldnt get behind the wheel either.

I also seem to remember reading that most sexual assaults are not committed by strangers but are more often"date rapes" but that only 1 in 10 assaults get reported.


OK its late and that was probably too long a post.....
Feel free to flame away, I still have Maurices kevlar from the sunshine girl thread

I truncated to save space but yes, being a MAN you DO bear some responsibility for acting the way you did and putting yourself at risk. This is about women though and the argument here is that no woman should ever bear any responsibility whatsoever in any way shape or form for her actions. Simply because she's a woman.

The big problem here is that a judge had the audacity to actually come out and dare to admonish a woman for her actions. OMFG burn the fucker!

Here's a story for you:

When I was in my 20's I was really into physical fitness. I would jog every night and work out 6 times a week. One friday night I was at a friend's house downtown and had a few beers. I was getting antsy around 11 pm because I hadn't done my run.

I borrowed a pair of sweats and went off for a run. He tried to stop me but I said I'd be fine.

I was jumped by 3 guys, one a pro boxer and they beat the crap outta me. Broken leg, cracked ribs, hairline crack on my cheekbone, etc. They were caught.

During the trial they were found guilty and during his ruling the judge said to me directly (among other things) that I was foolish for going out in that area that late at night alone. No different than what this judge said at this trial. I bore some responsibility for my actions that night just like this woman here should bear some responsibility for her actions that night.

Huh?

Since it seems that you're supporting the statements in this thread that women bear no responsibility for their actions, I gave you an example and would like to hear your comments on it.

If we are to believe that women do not and should not bear any responsibility for their actions, then in the example given, you should blame the guy who left the keys in his car, not your daughter.

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

During the trial they were found guilty and during his ruling the judge said to me directly (among other things) that I was foolish for going out in that area that late at night alone. No different than what this judge said at this trial. I bore some responsibility for my actions that night just like this woman here should bear some responsibility for her actions that night.
.

So did you feel that the perps in your case should have been given a lighter sentence because you made the unwise choice to go out running that night?

 

[scotty]

"... being a MAN you DO bear some responsibility for acting the way you did and putting yourself at risk. This is about women though and the argument here is that no woman should ever bear any responsibility whatsoever in any way shape or form for her actions. Simply because she's a woman. "


Actually that was the point I was trying to make by analogy. That every person shares some responsibility for there actions and bad choices. This woman doesnt live in a utopia but a real world where actions have consequences.

As for the story ...must have happened before the age of "political correctness" in judges rulings.
Kinda nice when you hear some wisdom not just a ruling in a way. Tough way to learn a lesson TBOY and wow bad neighbourhood unless they were his sisters shiny pink 20 minute work out sweats ...then I could understand :he:

 

[tboy]

So did you feel that the perps in your case should have been given a lighter sentence because you made the unwise choice to go out running that night?

Yes and No, because they WERE given a lighter sentence....one: a year's probation. one: 3 months probation the last: 3 months in jail to be served on weekends. At the time? Yeah, I wanted them to fry because even the cops said they could have killed me but when I cooled down and thought about it, I said to myself: yeah, that was pretty stupid what I did and accepted the blame for putting myself in that sort of danger. Do I do that now or have I since? No. I take precautions.

As scotty said: you can take the risks and take your chances or you can put your wad of cash in your pocket and be discrete about it. Yeah, even if you DO take precautions you MIGHT still get robbed but why advertise it and increase your risks? And if you DO advertise that you're ripe for being a victim? Whose fault is that? No one forced you to wave your wad of cash around just like no one forced this woman in question to dress the way she did.

This goes back to what I've said repeatedly here: when a woman flashes her wares she has no control over who she attracts.

Further to scotty:

Yeah I knew what you were saying, I was alluding to the fact that it seems that women should be exempted from the responsibility just because they have bigger boobs (than some lol). I don't buy that argument. I say that women are equal to men in all ways (except for writing their names in pee in the snow). They have the mental, physical and emotional abilility to make decisions as to how to act in public. They have to ability to know the difference between doing things that might be harmful to them, and doing things that will help them avoid dangerous situations.

 

[KathrynBardot]

Sigh. If a woman is raped while out at the beach, should the perpetrator serve less time because she was "flashing her wares" by wearing a bikini?

I was using a situation from my own personal experience. Remove "the bar" and substitute "my boyfriend" for "a guy" since y'all have such a hang up about it.

 

[RAWD]

Sigh. If a woman is raped while out at the beach, should the perpetrator serve less time because she was "flashing her wares" by wearing a bikini?

Absolutely not, and i don't think anyone here is taking that position.

 

[KathrynBardot]

Absolutely not, and i don't think anyone here is taking that position.

What's the difference between a bikini and a tube top then? Because a part of the reasoning for the lenient sentencing given by the judge was that the victim was wearing a tube top with no bra.

 

[tboy]

What's the difference between a bikini and a tube top then? Because a part of the reasoning for the lenient sentencing given by the judge was that the victim was wearing a tube top with no bra.

Do you really REALLY need us to explain the difference to you? or are you being obtuse on purpose?

Let me put it this way: If you don't know the difference then why aren't you walking down yonge st wearing nothing but a thong and a pair of black CFMs? Hey, it's legal, so why aren't you?

 

[KathrynBardot]

Do you really REALLY need us to explain the difference to you? or are you being obtuse on purpose?

Let me put it this way: If you don't know the difference then why aren't you walking down yonge st wearing nothing but a thong and a pair of black CFMs? Hey, it's legal, so why aren't you?

No, really - you're the one going on about how she shouldn't have been flashing her wares, so what's the difference between wearing a bikini top in the summer and wearing a tube top to the bar? If we're to believe the judge in that the victim invited this upon herself because of "her suggestive attire and flirtatious conduct," then we must take a look at what other clothing could excuse a man from rape because it's too "suggestive."

The man sexually assaulted someone and he is being allowed to walk freely through his community because the judge deemed his behaviour "inconsiderate" and that he was simply "insensitive to the fact (she) was not a willing participant." If the man can't understand NO when NO is said, why is he not behind bars? Because he didn't understand that despite her attire, she SAID NO?

 

[GenevieveLajoie]

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.
2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!
3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!
4. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.
5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!
6. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.
8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.
9. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!
10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone "on accident"you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

 

[tboy]

Ok, once again you are changing your story to suit your needs..... *rolls eyes"

The difference is:

1) If everyone was wearing a tube top at the bar, it wouldn't be a big deal
2) A bikini on the beach is appropriate where many if not most are wearing just as revealing clothing
3) wearing a tube top to a bar is NOT appropriate, unless of course you WANT to attract unwanted attention to yourself.
4) Wearing revealing clothing at the beach is IMMENSELY different than on the streets.

If you don't see the difference why don't you walk down Yonge St wearing only a thong and black CFMs?

I'll answer FOR you since you won't: because you know when and what is appropriate for different enviroments that's why but you'd never admit that because it doesn't prove your point, it proves MY point......

Where did you get that quote? The one thing that is a blatant lie is that he is NOT allowed to walk through freely, he is under probation. That's a big difference.

 

[tboy]

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

1. Don’t leave your drink unattended else someone might put drugs in it
2. When you have to go somewhere late at night, don't do it by yourself and stay in well lit areas.
3. If you pull over with car problems, call for help on your cellphone and don't unlock your doors for anyone but the tow truck driver or police.
4. NEVER open your door or window for a stranger and have a safety chain properly installed by a knowledgeable tradesman.
5. If you are alone in an elevator, stand with your back to the wall.
6. If you have to go to the laundry room, do so at popular times and NOT late at night.
7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from drinking too much, have at least one person in your group be a designated driver/chaperone to insure you don't do something stupid.
8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to want to get intimate with them to get them to buy you dinner/drinks/give you a ride home. Consider telling them you just want to have fun tonight but it is not going to go any further.
9. Don’t forget: don't drink so much you pass out in a stranger's bed
10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might get assaulted and have it at the ready if something untoward should happen.
11. Take a self defence class designed specifically for women. Carry the baton with you at all times and practise with it.
12. Don't go into underground parking unaccompanied. If you've been shopping late or working late at night, call security to have a guard escort you to your car.
13. Always look in the backseat of your car before getting in. Have your finger on the horn button of the remote, if you see someone in the backseat, hit the horn button and run.
14. If you're walking somewhere alone, keep your key ring in your hand, keys make a very effective weapon (I do this).
15. Don't overload yourself with packages. Always have one arm free and if you're going to your house or car, have the keys out, and the proper key ready to be used.
16. Don't accept rides from strangers or share a cab with strangers....

There, I fixed it for you.....

(btw, the above applies to men as well as women)

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

There, I fixed it for you.....

(btw, the above applies to men as well as women)

Actually that's a decent list.

 

[peace]

Tboy,
First of all, I want to say I am sorry for what had happened to you. HUGS (no ass grabbing here) I hope you were able to overcome this attack and move on with your life. Of course, I am sure you will always carry this scar of yours.

Now regarding the judge in your case, he's quite dense by putting some blame on you. You should NEVER blame yourself for being attacked by 3 men. you didnt have a sign on your forehead and say, "PLEASE BEAT ME UP!" Unfortunately YOUR CRUEL ATTACKERS received some lame punishment for their gruesome attack on you. Our judical system is truly a disgrace...it really does.

My best friend and his 2 buddies had a similar experience and their attackers got away with it. Instead, the judge blamed him and his friends for making themselves visible in a bad area.

I am just so tired of hearing how the victims have to bear some responsibility for having been violated by jackasses.

Fortunately i m never tired of HUGS.

 

[tboy]

OH I still carry the scars, there's a good one on my face....but that is just a part of who I am now....

I don't blame the judge one bit. Hindsight being 20/20 I was being a nob for not knowing better than to go out late at night in THAT area....hence why I can see the point the judge was making in THIS case, and why I say that in some instances, yes, the victim does bear some responsibility for doing something to put themselves at risk. This is NOT to say that the criminals don't deserve to be tried and convicted, but if you poke the bear, you're going to get bit so it is best to just not poke the bear.....

 

[scotty]

Good list tboy.

Im sharing it with loved ones.

I still dont get why people cant see this
I do something that puts me in a situation where I am vulnerable to some unscrupulous person taking advantage of me in some way. They are 100 % responsible for their choice to take advantage of me and should be punished to the full extent of the law. But I am responsible for putting my self at risk.
Not to blame myself and forgive my oppressor but I should act to minimize danger to myself and in this I was lacking

p.s. for someone so hung up on responsibility you would think I would learn how to spell it lol(that ones for you TBoy)

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

Tboy,
Now regarding the judge in your case, he's quite dense by putting some blame on you. You should NEVER blame yourself for being attacked by 3 men. you didnt have a sign on your forehead and say, "PLEASE BEAT ME UP!" Unfortunately YOUR CRUEL ATTACKERS received some lame punishment for their gruesome attack on you. Our judical system is truly a disgrace...it really does.

I am just so tired of hearing how the victims have to bear some responsibility for having been violated by jackasses.
.

You clearly are missing the point he is trying to make.

What he is saying is that in some instances the victims have to bear a degree of responsibility because they knowingly put themselves in a place of high risk.

 

[peace]

No I am not Maurice....I am not missing a point at all...I am just respectfully disagreeing with his point of view. I still think it wasnt his fault at all. People have the right to live in a safe environment. Unfortunately we live in a society that puts more emphasis on the "so called faults" on the victims. Too often victims get blamed and unfortunately they dont get the required help to overcome their pain. Instead, many people often focus on the "attacker" and try to justify his or his actions. Just a joke because we should be more focusing on helping the victims and making every effort to educate our society about respecting people's safety and their choices.


Then again, you dont have to agree with me....

HUGS

 

[Maurice Boscorelli]

No I am not Maurice....I am not missing a point at all...I am just respectfully disagreeing with his point of view. I still think it wasnt his fault at all. People have the right to live in a safe environment. Unfortunately we live in a society that puts more emphasis on the "so called faults" on the victims. Too often victims get blamed and unfortunately they dont get the required help to overcome their pain. Instead, many people often focus on the "attacker" and try to justify his or his actions. Just a joke because we should be more focusing on helping the victims and making every effort to educate our society about respecting people's safety and their choices.

So you would never blame yourself in any way if you were assaulted?

Lets take my previous example shall we. You would take a stroll in Harlem on a warm summer night and If you got mugged you would say you were totally blameless for that assault. Is that correct?

Please answer the question directly and try not to deflect the way some have in this thread.

 

[tboy]

I think where your problem lies Peace is that you are mistaking "fault" for responsibility. Two totally different things.

Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a society where it was safe to do whatever we want, when we want with whomever we want but that is utopia and mother nature prevents that from ever occuring. In nature, there are predators and there are prey. There is no escaping that. The trick is to fly under the radar and not be preyed upon by not drawing unwanted attention to yourself and taking some very basic self-preservation precautions.

Like my list suggests, there are things you can do to keep yourself relatively safe and then there are things you can do to put yourself at risk. If you choose to put yourself at risk, by partaking in risky behaviour, then one must bear some responsibility for taking those risks. You cannot just deflect that all onto someone else.

Like people who swim with sharks: it isn't a question of IF you're going to get bit, it is a question of when.......so you have to decide beforehand is the "thrill" worth the risk?

Oh, and the "right" to live in a safe environment? We do have the right but to assume our environment is safe, is just naive. Our environment is anything BUT safe, some are safeR than others, but it is far from safe........and to go around assuming it IS safe is opening yourself up to becoming a victim.....