Bill C36: Why it's really a fail

[Warl0ck]

This is never much mentioned in the debate on C36, but having been to Sweden I thought I'd add it.


1. Swedish is a country where social programs are robust. The result is a woman who wants to get out of the sex trade can attend college or university, receive good welfare benefits while attending school, etc. etc. etc. In Canada, we don't have those options (at least I'm not aware of them).

2. Because of this, a substantial portion of "imported" or trafficked sex workers. In Europe, women are trafficked from former "iron curtain" countries & Africa often by very nasty gangs. If you've ever seen the movie Taken, there is some reality to that (even if it's sensationalized Hollywood fare). Sure it happens here, but Europe is much closer to the source of trafficked females. So I assume lawmakers there felt that the Nordic model assisted those trafficked women in coming forward. Personally, I think that's a "pie eye do gooder shit" because the reality is you're not about to snitch on a criminal organization that will murder you and terrorize your family if you snitch on them.

/rantovercoffeedone.

 

[Hoser]

I have to watch that movie.

 

[User-E]

Taken (2008) - IMDb

 

[Fiddy]

Unfortunately more the sites should be operating within C36 laws. A lot of the advertising sites across Canada have taken the attitude C36 can't be enforced.

As we've seen with the US, political winds can take unpredictable swings. We could easily have a very aggressive PC govenment in Canada under O'Leary in 2019.

A newly invigorated PC party may do more to enforce C36 to energize it's small town and rural family base.

You have to operate your businesses based on the laws on the books being mindful how political winds change over time. You can't base decision on current events.

The sites are always monitored by the LE. A mistake made 3-4 years ago by an advertising site can materialize as a legal issue in 2020.

 

[Lorenzo]

Unfortunately more the sites should be operating within C36 laws. A lot of the advertising sites across Canada have taken the attitude C36 can't be enforced.

As we've seen with the US, political winds can take unpredictable swings. We could easily have a very aggressive PC govenment in Canada under O'Leary in 2019.

A newly invigorated PC party may do more to enforce C36 to energize it's small town and rural family base.

You have to operate your businesses based on the laws on the books being mindful how political winds change over time. You can't base decision on current events.

The sites are always monitored by the LE. A mistake made 3-4 years ago by an advertising site can materialize as a legal issue in 2020.

Any examples how agencies and Indys make mistakes on how they advertise?.

 

[Robintheboywonder]

A catch 22. Vote liberals and they throw your money away. Vote conservative and they throw you in jail.

 

[Canada-Man]

A Message From Terri-Jean Bedford | Terri-Jean Bedford's Blog

It is obvious now that any significant attempts to enforce Bill C-36 will fail. Major police forces and premiers do not want to enforce the legislation. Any attempts at implementation will cause controversy and only speed the end of such attempts. The legal invalidation will follow in time.

 

[Analme]

Unfortunately more the sites should be operating within C36 laws. A lot of the advertising sites across Canada have taken the attitude C36 can't be enforced.

As we've seen with the US, political winds can take unpredictable swings. We could easily have a very aggressive PC govenment in Canada under O'Leary in 2019.

A newly invigorated PC party may do more to enforce C36 to energize it's small town and rural family base.

You have to operate your businesses based on the laws on the books being mindful how political winds change over time. You can't base decision on current events.

The sites are always monitored by the LE. A mistake made 3-4 years ago by an advertising site can materialize as a legal issue in 2020.

I don't think O'leary is a bible thumper do gooder, he's about the economy not arresting consensual adults but you're right C36 does come with a large hammer if they decide to use it. The Conservatives have lost my vote forever after introducing BillC36.

 

[Canada-Man]

Does O'Leary supports sex work?

 

[User-E]

Does O'Leary supports sex work?

I've been watching current media articles and haven't found any comments about that yet. He might have said something in the past, but I have no idea.

 

[Fiddy]

I don't think O'leary is a bible thumper do gooder, he's about the economy not arresting consensual adults but you're right C36 does come with a large hammer if they decide to use it. The Conservatives have lost my vote forever after introducing BillC36.

I don't think O'Leary would himself. I would think people like Peter MacKay and the other rural PC candidates are more opportunistic.

Unfortunately the Supreme Court of Canada made it easier to use summary judgments to convict people in cases of fraud and other lower criminal manners.

In theory the crown could use summary judgements with massive fines and no jail time to punish owners of 3rd party site for being guilty of breaking the advertising laws under C36. There would be no legal recourse to challenge a summary judgment in Supreme Court.

 

[cristycurves]

My reasoning behind why I think reviews shouldn't be explicit. If we are going to sell our time, to protect our clients, then isn't that undone by those who think it necessary to write reviews that indicate they've had "paid sex"? Why not encourage everyone to be "subtle", isn't that being safer than sorry?

quote from an interesting article about advertising- While C-36 bans third-party advertising, sex workers will still be permitted to advertise their own services on their own websites. But even this freedom may be compromised. Websites must be hosted on a server that is connected to the internet. That hosting is typically done by a third-party hosting company. According to an official with the Justice Department, the web-hosting company may be subject to prosecution if it does not take reasonable steps to ensure that the content of the website meets the requirements of the bill. Hosting companies are unlikely to want to take on that risk or responsibility, so will in all probability decline to host websites for escort services, effectively making the ban on advertising absolute.

But the advertising aspect of the law can only be enforced if the advertising originates in Canada and if the person(s) responsible for the advertising are resident in Canada. Bruce Ryder, an associate professor at Osgoode Hall Law School, points out that "Canadian law can't be enforced beyond our borders. It's hard to imagine how they overcome the jurisdictional lim-its on Canadian law and the practical obstacles to prosecuting people."

These limitations on communication and advertising are likely to be challenged when the new law comes into effect. The ban on advertising will have the effect of undoing the ability to work indoors by forcing sex workers onto the street to find clients. The limitations on places of communication will further push them into back alleys and other inherently more dangerous areas, which runs counter to the requirements laid out in the Supreme Court decision.

another interesting article on advertising sex- Advertising sex the new crime - NOW Magazine

the billc 36 explained https://www.safersexwork.ca/wp-cont...fosheet-on-General-Laws-and-Communicating.pdf

 

[Ligio]

Thanks, worth the reads.

 

[Fiddy]

My reasoning behind why I think reviews shouldn't be explicit. If we are going to sell our time, to protect our clients, then isn't that undone by those who think it necessary to write reviews that indicate they've had "paid sex"? Why not encourage everyone to be "subtle", isn't that being safer than sorry?

quote from an interesting article about advertising- While C-36 bans third-party advertising, sex workers will still be permitted to advertise their own services on their own websites. But even this freedom may be compromised. Websites must be hosted on a server that is connected to the internet. That hosting is typically done by a third-party hosting company. According to an official with the Justice Department, the web-hosting company may be subject to prosecution if it does not take reasonable steps to ensure that the content of the website meets the requirements of the bill. Hosting companies are unlikely to want to take on that risk or responsibility, so will in all probability decline to host websites for escort services, effectively making the ban on advertising absolute.

But the advertising aspect of the law can only be enforced if the advertising originates in Canada and if the person(s) responsible for the advertising are resident in Canada. Bruce Ryder, an associate professor at Osgoode Hall Law School, points out that "Canadian law can't be enforced beyond our borders. It's hard to imagine how they overcome the jurisdictional lim-its on Canadian law and the practical obstacles to prosecuting people."

These limitations on communication and advertising are likely to be challenged when the new law comes into effect. The ban on advertising will have the effect of undoing the ability to work indoors by forcing sex workers onto the street to find clients. The limitations on places of communication will further push them into back alleys and other inherently more dangerous areas, which runs counter to the requirements laid out in the Supreme Court decision.

another interesting article on advertising sex- Advertising sex the new crime - NOW Magazine

the billc 36 explained https://www.safersexwork.ca/wp-cont...fosheet-on-General-Laws-and-Communicating.pdf

BP wasn't forced to shutdown in the US by criminal violations. It was forced to shutdown because of civil actions, fines and lawsuits filed by the US govenment against credit card companies, processors and Backpage.

It was civil law that killed BP in the US; not criminal law.

An equally smart ambitious Crown prosecutor in Canada could easily use civil law and international civil law to chase down websites owner operating in foreign countries.

Lot's of criminal cases are the result of evidence uncovered while investigating civil actions and suits. Lobbyist form Fortune 500 companies around the world have done a fantastic job globalizing civil laws around the world.

Big corporartions have ensured civil laws have greater reach around the world than criminal laws do.

 

[User-E]

Just a reminder that Cease and Desist letters can be sent by your lawyer to an online handle via their email address, without real names or personal info having to be exchanged, and law enforcement does not need to be involved.

In order for criminal charges to be laid or a Peace Bond obtained, you have to involve law enforcement and use real names.

 

[Hotone]

BP wasn't forced to shutdown in the US by criminal violations. It was forced to shutdown because of civil actions, fines and lawsuits filed by the US govenment against credit card companies, processors and Backpage.

It was civil law that killed BP in the US; not criminal law.

An equally smart ambitious Crown prosecutor in Canada could easily use civil law and international civil law to chase down websites owner operating in foreign countries.

Lot's of criminal cases are the result of evidence uncovered while investigating civil actions and suits. Lobbyist form Fortune 500 companies around the world have done a fantastic job globalizing civil laws around the world.

Big corporartions have ensured civil laws have greater reach around the world than criminal laws do.

What he said.

 

[Canada-Man]

so when will the liberals repeal bill-c36?

 

[Fiddy]

so when will the liberals repeal bill-c36?

Never. It's not even on their radar and there's no political brownie points in it for them.

 

[cristycurves]

Never. It's not even on their radar and there's no political brownie points in it for them.

I agree, it's of no political benefit for any politician to tackle this. Sadly this bill is something we have to become used to and comply with. It's my opinion, that as long as Christianity and other religions rule, so will the moral opinions that paid sex is forbidden sex and anyone engaging in such activity is thought to be "immoral", sad to say

 

[Fuggedabouditt]

I agree, it's of no political benefit for any politician to tackle this. Sadly this bill is something we have to become used to and comply with. It's my opinion, that as long as Christianity and other religions rule, so will the moral opinions that paid sex is forbidden sex and anyone engaging in such activity is thought to be "immoral", sad to say

Politics in general are run by the moral and religious brigade. C-36 will sit like the arc in Raiders of the lost ark; on a shelf buried in other bills that were made to appease the respondents and shelved. In all fairness, there has not been any media focus on this since the bill came out. The noise needs to start again.